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#54222 - Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:48 PM 1 Cor. 14 and the Gifts  
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Tom Offline
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Recently I was on a Reformed Facebook page, where the subject of gifts like tongues and prophecy was the topic. While most of those in the discussion were against the Charismatic Movement, never the less, it seemed that there was a lot of confusion on how to understand passages like 1 Cor. 14. I thought it might help to give a link to an article I read on the Highway dealing with Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
Unfortunately, I was accused of using a straw man argument and saying the issue has nothing to do with Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy. Saying both Reformed and non-Reformed commentaries interpreted 1 Cor. 14 the same way and that it is foolishness to use that argument.
Here is the article I gave them.
[url]https://www.the-highway.com/tricho-charis_Brown.html[\url]

Thoughts?
Tom

#54224 - Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:48 PM Re: 1 Cor. 14 and the Gifts [Re: Tom]  
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Tom Offline
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How would you respond to the following?
Tom Hardy if you properly read 1 Cor 14 it has nothing to do with that issue . People from both sides can have the same exegesis of 1 Cor 14 . Your not making any logical connection on this at all . As said it's a guilt by association. News flash 1 Cor 12 to 14 is about the spiritual gifts only and not the issue over trichotomy vs. dichotomy. Very far fetched what you are trying to show . No logical consequence of one to the other . Evidently you are not familiar with various commentaries on the Bible . I have seen many trichotomisy and dichotomist give the same basic exegesis of 1 Cor 14 many times . Please don't use Cracker Jack apologetics .

#54228 - Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:46 PM Re: 1 Cor. 14 and the Gifts [Re: Tom]  
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Originally Posted by Tom
How would you respond to the following?
Tom Hardy if you properly read 1 Cor 14 it has nothing to do with that issue . People from both sides can have the same exegesis of 1 Cor 14 . Your not making any logical connection on this at all . As said it's a guilt by association. News flash 1 Cor 12 to 14 is about the spiritual gifts only and not the issue over trichotomy vs. dichotomy. Very far fetched what you are trying to show . No logical consequence of one to the other . Evidently you are not familiar with various commentaries on the Bible . I have seen many trichotomisy and dichotomist give the same basic exegesis of 1 Cor 14 many times . Please don't use Cracker Jack apologetics .


Those who hold to trichotomy will use 1 Corinthians 14:14 to help support their position. On the following two URLs, use "Find in Page" for 1 Corinthians 14:14 and you will see this.

https://www.brainscape.com/flashcards/grudem-chapter-23-5596718/packs/8463589

http://pastorkdj.blogspot.com/2015/04/foundational-truths-mankind-2.html

It appears that you were correct about how the verse is used by trichotomists.


Ned
#54231 - Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:00 AM Re: 1 Cor. 14 and the Gifts [Re: Tom]  
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I just re-read the article and while I still believe what the article said is valid. I have some misgiving about how the author worded some of it. In fact, some of it might cause some to get their dander up and as a result miss the whole point of what the author was trying to say.
For example, in the opening paragraph the author uses the words "completely oblivious..." that sounds too much like an absolute in every case and as a result sounds disrespectful. He might have worded that a little better as not to try to make the reader feel like an idiot.
Also in the very next paragraph; where he lists 3 points. Number 2 he uses the words "...uttered from his own lips."
Thinking about this, it sounds a little sarcastic, so perhaps if the word "spoken" or something similar replaced those words, it would be nicer.
I could cite other examples, but I think you get my point.
I will say this however. Although it definitely is not excusable; I have written a few articles over the years and sometimes when the issue is something I am passionate about, I find it hard to guard against getting personal. That is not to say that strong language is not needed sometimes; but strong language doesn't need to be offensive. The goal is to make a point, without making the reader get distracted away from the point.
Hope that make sense.
Looking back at transitioning out of the Charismatic Movement, I can tell you that I got it from both sides. From Charismatic family and friends, their mindset was that I was backsliding. From articles against the Charismatic Movement, often when reading them I had to have thick skin just to get through many of them; their wording often was unnecessarily offensive.
Tom

#54232 - Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:56 AM Re: 1 Cor. 14 and the Gifts [Re: Tom]  
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Gee Tom, from reading your reply it sounds like you subscribe to EC (Ecclessiastical Correctness). scratchchin I would certainly agree that it is inappropriate to go out of one's way to be deliberately offensive, for to do so reveals that one's motive is not to convince but to attack those who oppose you. You should also take into account that "offensive" is one of those nebulous terms which is as difficult to define as it is to attempt to nail Jello to a wall. Most people define "offensive" subjectively, thus ANYTHING can be deemed offensive according to the individual that is not in agreement with whatever the subject or word(s) used to communicate. If something is "completely obvious" to someone but not so to another, why is that offensive? Would you say that the LORD Christ often spoke in an offensive manner and is thus guilty of sin for being insensitive, rude, caustic, etc.? [b]I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no one comes to the Father but by ME." (Jh 14:6). Or "And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;" (Lk 6:3). Or, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest not these things?" (Jh 3:10). I could give dozens of similar examples from the words of Christ and even more from the writings of the other NT writers where it could be easily said that they all were "offensive" to those who did not agree with them.

Have you ever read some of the works of the Reformers where a fundamental doctrine was being presented and defended against their opponents, e.g., Calvin's Calvinism? Luther was known for his less than gentile manner when addressing his detractors... etc. Admittedly, those men who fought to establish the truth once delivered to the saints which had been all but lost for centuries could be said to have been "offensive" in their speech and writings by today's standards of PC and EC. And, admittedly, they were not without sin but simply men who were redeemed by the blood of Christ and given an extra unction of the Spirit as soldiers of God; simul iustus et peccator. But as I pointed out above, the divinely inspired written Word of God does record many examples where the LORD Christ and His inspired Apostles spoke and wrote things which could easily be classified as "offensive". Using definitive terms such as "must", "will", "none/no one", "cannot", "only", etc. are going to be offensive to someone. In fact, what Scripture says as a whole is most assuredly (<--- offensive phrase) offensive to those outside of Christ unless they are given ears to hear, yes?

Lastly, I'll leave you with the uninspired words of Martin Luther which are doubtless offensive...... giggle

Quote
"I am not permitted to let my love be so merciful as to tolerate and endure false doctrine. When faith and doctrine are concerned and endangered, neither love nor patience are in order.... when these are concerned, neither toleration nor mercy are in order, but only anger, dispute, and destruction - to be sure, only with the Word of God as our weapon." - Martin Luther


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simul iustus et peccator

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#54234 - Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:37 AM Re: 1 Cor. 14 and the Gifts [Re: Tom]  
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Tom Offline
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Tom  Offline
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Pilgrim
If you got that from what I wrote, then I must be a lousy communicator.
I gave examples of what I am talking about and I think the author is guilty of painting everyone in the movement with the same brush.
Maybe it is just me, but when people talk that way to me, that stands out more than the actual point the person is making. Which in the case of the article is a really good point that I believe stands out on its own.


Tom


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