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#54219 - Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:34 AM What is conservatism today?  
Joined: Jul 2017
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PerpetualLearner Offline
Journeyman
PerpetualLearner  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 56
Tampa Bay, Florida
Conservatism, noun -
"1. The inclination, especially in politics, to maintain the existing or traditional order.
2. A political philosophy or attitude that emphasizes respect for traditional institutions and opposes the attempt to achieve social change though legislation or publicly funded programs.
3. Caution or moderation, as in behavior or outlook."
The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language

"Trump's rise has elevated the populists, often working-class and rural voters, who tend to be less fiscally conservative and hawkish on foreign policy and more motivated by cultural wedge issues like guns and same-sex marriage, than traditional conservatives, who tend to hold down white-collar jobs and live in the suburbs." David M. Drucker, Washington Examiner Editorial, August 8, 2017

Something about the preceding paragraph irritated me this morning. The terms "conservative" and "neo-con" have been thrown about so much in recent years, do any of us really use the same definition of those terms? Don't conservative values or ideas progress just like liberals, but at a slower pace? It is common to speak of voting for the lesser of two evils, rather than voting for the 3rd party we may agree with closer. Or, vote for the candidate you can agree with 70% who has a better chance to win, rather than voting for the candidate you agree with 95% but has little chance to win. It appears to me that when your choices are truly standing for a Bible-based conservatism/libertarianism; to vote for the 70% agreed with candidate, is only taking us into secular, materialistic Marxism/Socialism/Communism at a slower pace. I do not distinguish between the three terms.

Robert L. Dabney wrote, concering the woman's suffrage movement in the later 19th century:

"It may be inferred again that the present movement for women’s rights will certainly prevail from the history of its only opponent: Northern conservatism. This is a party which never conserves anything. Its history has been that it demurs to each aggression of the progressive party, and aims to save its credit by a respectable amount of growling, but always acquiesces at last in the innovation. What was the resisted novelty of yesterday is today one of the accepted principles of conservatism; it is now conservative only in affecting to resist the next innovation, which will tomorrow be forced upon its timidity and will be succeeded by some third revolution; to be denounced and then adopted in its turn. American conservatism is merely the shadow that follows Radicalism as it moves forward towards perdition. It remains behind it, but never retards it, and always advances near its leader. . . ."
https://www.counter-currents.com/2012/11/robert-lewis-dabney-on-conservatism/

I have about come to the point that I'll vote in the Primaries for who I really want in office, but the General Elections later give little choice, so I'm debating sitting those out. The last Presidential election I began supporting Gov. Scott Walker, morally and financially. After he quickly dropped out, I debated between Sen. Ted Cruz and Donald Trump. Sen. Cruz's father's association with Benny Hinn's wife caused me to go for Trump. I wanted the deceitful, thieving, establishment kicked out, Democrats and Republicans. So, I voted to upset the apple cart! This last paragraph is to give perspective on my thought processes. Any suggestions for a future course of action? dizzy


Ned
#54221 - Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:39 AM Re: What is conservatism today? [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
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1. Observation: there is an all too similarity between politics and those involved in it and ecclesiastical policy and those involved in it, i.e., teachers and elders/pastors.

2. I find a gross disparity between the Republican Party platform and those who run on the Republican ticket. Yes, the Democrats have their fair share of hypocrites but most are much closer to the Democratic Party platform which now is to make the Constitution a "living document" vs. a "static propositional document", i.e., the Democrats openly defy the original intent of the Constitution (cf. The Federalist Papers) by either redefining it or outright ignoring it. ALL (with the possibility of one or a very few exceptions") confessional denominations are guilty of doing the same thing. Thus we have, e.g., in the Republican Party "RINOs" (Republicans In Name Only) and in the Reformed-type denominations there are "RINOs" (Reformed In Name Only).

3. Libertarians are basically the political antinomians to one degree or another. So, for me, despite they have some very sound ideas cannot be considered, for without law you have chaos and immorality.

4. Christians need to understand that when one votes in any election, they aren't voting for a pastor but rather someone who is best qualified for the position they are running for, whether local through federal. Their moral values are most certainly to be considered, but again, Scripture teaches that the Church does not have a mandate to establish a world theocracy, aka: Golden Age on earth. Rather, the Church is to promulgate the Gospel so as to gather God's elect out of the world.

5. Voting for the "lesser of two evils" is a difficult subject depending upon one's ultimate standards for political candidates. In the case of the last presidential election, e.g., no candidate, as best as one could discern, was regenerate and thus in that area, all were equal. However, as a secondary authority the U.S. the Constitution should be used to judge a candidate's eligibility for that office. Hillary Clinton was obviously a "deplorable" individual when judged by any moral/political standard. Trump was/is likewise without a solid moral base but he was far more pro-Constitution. His business background and fiscal conservatism was at least one of the major areas that the U.S. needed. To allow Hillary Clinton and the Socialist/Communist Democrats to gain control of the country (I do think this is inevitable) would have most likely resulted in civil war. It's NOT true that such thinking is akin to "Situation Ethics", for the view does not believe that the "lesser of the two evils" is the ultimate good (ala Joseph Fletcher), but rather strategic for the protection of the rights and privileges of the country as enumerated in the U.S. Constitution.

6. Lastly, my personal opinion is that the United States and Canada are under the judgment and wrath of God. The Spirit of God has withdrawn His restraint and allowed evil to progress in both of these countries and their demise is certain. Civilizations and countries rise and fall according to the sovereign will of God. ALL of mankind serves the purpose of God to ultimately show forth His infinite glory, power, judgment, love, mercy and grace. One truth which too many seem to forget or outwardly reject is that only a remnant is going to be saved and this earth is going to be destroyed by fire. True Christians live in the world but they are not of this world for their hope is in the world to come.


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#54227 - Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:25 PM Re: What is conservatism today? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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PerpetualLearner Offline
Journeyman
PerpetualLearner  Offline
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Posts: 56
Tampa Bay, Florida
Hi Pilgrim... I agree with your point #1. On point #2, I pay little attention to the GOP Platform for it just seems like something to argue over and never appealed once the election is over. I understand why you compare to the Confessions of a church such as the Reformed or Lutheran. Pastors, Elders are required to accept if, correct? The Baptist Confessions were not demanded to my knowledge, but it seems individuals and churches often accept or embrace an older Baptist Confession, and many Fundamentalists take the 1833 New Hampshire Confession of Faith and rewrite the eschatology to support dispensationalism. On point #3, I referred to Bible-based libertarianism, lower case "l". What I mean by libertarian is the original freedoms we had in this country where men took individual responsibility for their choices, no government to bail them out. I had the Protestant 'work ethic' largely in mind. If you don't work, you don't eat, etc. I become quite angry to hear liberal politicians quote Matt. 25:41ff and apply it to civil government as both Obama and Kasich did. I agree fully on your point #4. I also generally agree with #5. I am more optimistic on point #6. I agree it seems like the signs of judgment are on the west, Isaiah 3. But, I do not know where this is going to fit in history. Are we going to go through another major upheaval such as before the Reformation and things improve and be even more godly in the future? I take the parable of the tiny mustard seed growing into a large tree to indicate the kingdom of God will keep growing larger and larger. I can't bring myself to believe that Satan on "the last day" will walk off with more of mankind than God Almighty will.

Spoken to Jews:
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it." (Matt 7:13-14, NRSV)

Spoken about the Gentiles:
"When Jesus heard him, he was amazed and said to those who followed him, 'Truly I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith. I tell you, many will come from east and west and will eat with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the heirs of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'” (Matt 8:10-12, NRSV)

For some reason, I could not make the "Reply" work as I had in prior replies.


Ned
#54229 - Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:15 PM Re: What is conservatism today? [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
Joined: Apr 2001
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Pilgrim Offline
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Pilgrim  Offline

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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,307
NH, USA
Originally Posted by PerpetualLearner
I am more optimistic on point #6. I agree it seems like the signs of judgment are on the west, Isaiah 3. But, I do not know where this is going to fit in history. Are we going to go through another major upheaval such as before the Reformation and things improve and be even more godly in the future? I take the parable of the tiny mustard seed growing into a large tree to indicate the kingdom of God will keep growing larger and larger. I can't bring myself to believe that Satan on "the last day" will walk off with more of mankind than God Almighty will.

1. The parable of the mustard seed simply teaches that the kingdom of God on earth which is the gathering of the elect out of the world into the visible Church. What it doesn't deal with is the proportional size of the Church to the world's population in all history. There are other passages which do address that subject directly (2Kg 19:31; Isa 1:9, 10:20-22, 11:11,16; Jer 23:3; Ezek 14:22; Joel 2:32; Mic 7:18; Zech 8:12; Rom 9:27, 11:5).

2. And I can't logically comprehend that Satan on the last day won't walk off with every single man, woman and child who ever lived. grin

Originally Posted by PerpetualLearner
For some reason, I could not make the "Reply" work as I had in prior replies.

Not enough information for me to make a comment on this one. Such issues should be posted in the HELP Forum.


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#54230 - Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:35 PM Re: What is conservatism today? [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Jul 2017
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PerpetualLearner Offline
Journeyman
PerpetualLearner  Offline
Journeyman

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 56
Tampa Bay, Florida
Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Originally Posted by PerpetualLearner
I am more optimistic on point #6. I agree it seems like the signs of judgment are on the west, Isaiah 3. But, I do not know where this is going to fit in history. Are we going to go through another major upheaval such as before the Reformation and things improve and be even more godly in the future? I take the parable of the tiny mustard seed growing into a large tree to indicate the kingdom of God will keep growing larger and larger. I can't bring myself to believe that Satan on "the last day" will walk off with more of mankind than God Almighty will.

1. The parable of the mustard seed simply teaches that the kingdom of God on earth which is the gathering of the elect out of the world into the visible Church. What it doesn't deal with is the proportional size of the Church to the world's population in all history. There are other passages which do address that subject directly (2Kg 19:31; Isa 1:9, 10:20-22, 11:11,16; Jer 23:3; Ezek 14:22; Joel 2:32; Mic 7:18; Zech 8:12; Rom 9:27, 11:5).

2. And I can't logically comprehend that Satan on the last day won't walk off with every single man, woman and child who ever lived. grin

Originally Posted by PerpetualLearner
For some reason, I could not make the "Reply" work as I had in prior replies.

Not enough information for me to make a comment on this one. Such issues should be posted in the HELP Forum.


Looks like I need to get rid of my wireless keyboard. smile Speaking of the state of our country, this happened about a mile from my house early this past Sunday morning:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4775844/Teens-deadly-stolen-total-126-arrests-them.html

I'll check your verses later, thanks.


Ned
#54235 - Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:26 PM Re: What is conservatism today? [Re: PerpetualLearner]  
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 56
PerpetualLearner Offline
Journeyman
PerpetualLearner  Offline
Journeyman

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 56
Tampa Bay, Florida
Originally Posted by PerpetualLearner
Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Originally Posted by PerpetualLearner
I am more optimistic on point #6. I agree it seems like the signs of judgment are on the west, Isaiah 3. But, I do not know where this is going to fit in history. Are we going to go through another major upheaval such as before the Reformation and things improve and be even more godly in the future? I take the parable of the tiny mustard seed growing into a large tree to indicate the kingdom of God will keep growing larger and larger. I can't bring myself to believe that Satan on "the last day" will walk off with more of mankind than God Almighty will.

1. The parable of the mustard seed simply teaches that the kingdom of God on earth which is the gathering of the elect out of the world into the visible Church. What it doesn't deal with is the proportional size of the Church to the world's population in all history. There are other passages which do address that subject directly (2Kg 19:31; Isa 1:9, 10:20-22, 11:11,16; Jer 23:3; Ezek 14:22; Joel 2:32; Mic 7:18; Zech 8:12; Rom 9:27, 11:5).

2. And I can't logically comprehend that Satan on the last day won't walk off with every single man, woman and child who ever lived. grin

Originally Posted by PerpetualLearner
For some reason, I could not make the "Reply" work as I had in prior replies.

Not enough information for me to make a comment on this one. Such issues should be posted in the HELP Forum.


Looks like I need to get rid of my wireless keyboard. smile Speaking of the state of our country, this happened about a mile from my house early this past Sunday morning:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4775844/Teens-deadly-stolen-total-126-arrests-them.html

I'll check your verses later, thanks.


I view the eschatological systems; amil, premil & postmil as theories, theological constructions; so I am not dogmatic in my support of the postmil position. Yet, if I am going venture an educated guess, I go with postmil.

Rv 20:2 indicates the 1000 years begins at the binding of Satan, which took place at the 1st Advent: Jn 12:27,31; 16:11; Mt 12:28,29; Hb 2:14; Col 2:14,15; 1 Jo 3:8. The end of the 1000 years sees Satan released for a short period of time and then the resurrection and judgment takes place. The 1000 years are symbolic of the full time between 1st & 2nd advents.

Mt 7:14 mentions the "few" saved, but Jesus is talking to Jews. In Mt 8:11 there are "many" saved from the Gentiles. The reference to "remnant" seems always aimed at Jews.

The kingdom of God is like the mustard seed, smallest of all seeds and it is said to grow into the largest of shrubs. Growth does not happen overnight, the kingdom grows over time.

"Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." (Matt 6:10, NRSV) Did Jesus teach the disciples to pray for something that will not happen? No! So, I expect God's will to be done here on earth just a it is in heaven.

"For the promise that he would inherit the world did not come to Abraham or to his descendants through the law but through the righteousness of faith. (Rom 4:13, NRSV) also with: "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:28-29, NRSV)

We believers are heirs who "inherit the world". So, we come under this prophecy also:

"Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession." (Ps 2:8, NRSV)

John Gill taught the spiritual reign of Christ and his description fits well my view of the kingdom of God as it grows, from 1st to 2nd Advent. For those interested, you may read it here:
http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace2/bk5-ch14.html (Gill was hist. premil, not postmil) Gill was Baptist, the next two men who influenced my view are Presbyterians.

My view has been strongly influenced by Gill and J. Marcellus Kik who can be viewed here:
https://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/k/kik-marcellus.html

I also believe Dr. David S. Clark in his preterist, postmillennial teaching is the clearest on Revelation in "The Message from Patmos: https://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1921_clark_message-from-patmos.pdf

1. Postmil got a bad name by the social gospel types, and the idea of joining the gospel of Jesus Christ to a human government, as is portrayed in the heretical, anti-Christ song "Battle Hymn of the Republic".
2. I must believe God's word the best that I can, no matter how I see current events, or history from my perspective.
3. I chat almost daily with a few men in Africa and to them, America and my life is a paradise, so the point of view makes a difference.
4. I believe the following verse alerts us to what to expect:

"All of life is far more boring than words could ever say. Our eyes and our ears are never satisfied with what we see and hear." (Ecc 1:8 CEV)

I wonder, am I just not satisfied with how utopian the 1000 years have grown into, or are we going though a time as preceded the Protestant Reformation and we still have a long future? Yet, maybe we could be in the period at the end of the 1000 years when Satan is released from his prison. So, my postmil viewpoint does keep the time of Christ's 2nd Advent very secret but it may be centuries or more away.


Ned

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