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Learning Presuppositional Apologetics #55023
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:13 PM
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline OP
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For many years I have believed in Presuppositional Apologetics; basically because as Romans 1:18 says all know God, but suppress the truth in unrighteousness and that is where I believe we should start when it comes to apologetics. I also believe our world view determines how we view evidence and therefore I have lost the moment I try to take a neutral stand with someone who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness. Neutrality is a myth, so trying to take a neutral stand is conceding defeat; because I have actually stepped out of my world view and into theirs.
One of my biggest problems however in being good at Presuppositional Apologetics is because in examining some examples, i.e. debates, blogs, etc… many of their arguments go right over my head and I end up not being comfortable in using the methods.
I also know from reading some blogs, that I am definitely not alone in this. That of course doesn’t mean that I don’t share the Gospel when I have the opportunity; for indeed sometimes I need to use wisdom and learn not to say anything at all.
I recently watched a video on apologetics that I found was helpful to me. Therefore, just in case there are people reading this, who get confused with some of the methods used by Presuppositionalists I am posting a link to the video.
I for one, watched it right through in one seating and found him to be very clear and fairly easy to understand. I plan on watching it again, in the not so distant future.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CvRy6AjeyLc

Tom

Re: Learning Presuppositional Apologetics [Re: Tom] #55024
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:57 PM
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I recently watched a video series on Apologetics by RC Sproul. He is definitely not a presuppositionalist. However, in the way he explains some crucial elements of apologetics; I cannot tell the difference between between the two - presuppositionalist and Evidentialist (if that is Sproul's camp). It seems like some learned men making a mountain out of mole hill.


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
Re: Learning Presuppositional Apologetics [Re: John_C] #55025
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:26 AM
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:26 AM
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Tom Offline OP
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John
Sproul believed in Classical Apologetics (not anymore, wink not evidential apologetics. If you are interested in finding out what the differences are, RC Sproul actually debated Greg Bahnsen on the subject. I believe there is a YouTube video on it. I will say however, that is wasn't really much of a debate, because Sproul did not seem to be comfortable with the format. Greg Bahnsen on the other hand was quite organized.
One thing I have always wondered about Sproul is how he could say that when it comes to theology it is true that everyone knows God, but without the supernatural regeneration of the Holy Spirit they will suppress that truth in unrighteousness (referring to Romans chapter one). Then turn around and say that when it comes to apologetics that is not the case. My confusion stems from my belief that everything should be viewed through our theology, including our apologetics. I guess we all have our blind spots.


Tom

Re: Learning Presuppositional Apologetics [Re: Tom] #55026
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:48 PM
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Thought I would give an example of the typical response I get from Christians when I share links like this.

"He is too deep!
Its our testimony that witnesses , whether or not we see it or not , this is our job , the rest is Gods ,we plant seeds , I do not believe in debating.as i have said to ppl , I have the truth and the truth has set me free. and they can have the same thing , I do believe the way you live your ( walk in the Lord draws )"

Although I love to sit down and talk to my fellow Christians about things like apologetics. Most are not interested in talking about that subject. Even though they love sharing what they believe, they do not believe apologetics such as what I shared in the video is a good way to share our faith.
Even though I attend a Reformed Church, I have very few people that are actually interested in things like this.
I believe talking to people in person is better than communication on blogs and boards like The Highway. Unfortunately, other than blogs and forums of this nature; Christians are not interested.
Tom

Re: Learning Presuppositional Apologetics [Re: Tom] #55028
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:53 AM
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:53 AM
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ReformedDisciple Offline
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Tom so true! Sadly, it is the culture in which we live that shuts down any hope for casual apologetics, or, rather, seeing apologetics become common to see. As for your query into approaching doing presuppositional apologetics, I would refer you to Jeff Durbin at Apologia Studios (channel) on YouTube. He has TONS of videos and clips where he actively engages his community with the presuppositional approach. Maybe his examples will help you? Also, his website has an All Access pass that is very affordable and has a section called Apologia Academy where he teaches and instructs on Apologetics. Hope this helps you!

Re: Learning Presuppositional Apologetics [Re: Tom] #55032
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:30 AM
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom

Thought I would give an example of the typical response I get from Christians when I share links like this.

"He is too deep!
Its our testimony that witnesses , whether or not we see it or not , this is our job , the rest is Gods ,we plant seeds , I do not believe in debating.as i have said to ppl , I have the truth and the truth has set me free. and they can have the same thing , I do believe the way you live your ( walk in the Lord draws )

1. One's "testimony" is NOT the Gospel. This practice of giving an alleged "personal testimony" as a means of evangelism is ingrained in many (most?) churches and has been for decades. It is not something one will find in Scripture. Paul's testimony was given before those to whom needed to be convinced of Paul's sincerity and divine credentials as well as his doctrine, which he had to set forth for approval before those of the Jerusalem Council.

2. Experience is NOT a standard of truth. The Bible IS the standard of truth, being the only divinely inspired source and ultimate authority in all matters of faith and practice. Making experience any sort of representation of truth is a flat denial of objective, propositional, absolute truth, which Francis Schaeffer liked to call "True Truth". People do not need to hear about YOU and YOUR experience, but rather they need to hear/read about GOD and HIS truth, e.g., A Gospel Summary.

3. Apologetics is simply a defense of the faith (once delivered unto the saints) which is certainly something the Bible encourages all true believers to engage in as they are given the ability to do so, and it is a requirement for any man who seeks the office of elder (Titus 1:9). Ignorance of biblical truth is nothing to boast about and contrary to what a true disciple of Christ is (Jh 8:31,32, 17:17; Col 1:9,10,23).


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Re: Learning Presuppositional Apologetics [Re: Tom] #55074
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:42 PM
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:42 PM
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Dallas, Tx USA
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I thoroughly agree with Pilgrim's response

Re: Learning Presuppositional Apologetics [Re: Tom] #55075
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:14 PM
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:14 PM
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Tom Offline OP
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So do I, though I do know that ones testimony of what the Lord has done in a person's life can be powerful.

Tom

Re: Learning Presuppositional Apologetics [Re: Tom] #55085
Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:05 PM
Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom
So do I, though I do know that ones testimony of what the Lord has done in a person's life can be powerful.

Tom


True, but maybe only as it may bring them to a point of consideration. But only the Gospel has the power to bring about the pricking of one's heart for regeneration into salvation.

Re: Learning Presuppositional Apologetics [Re: ReformedDisciple] #55087
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:56 PM
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:56 PM
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AMEN! If I have a little more free time, I will expand on the problem with "testimonies". The Apostle Paul is perspicuous as to the God-ordained means of saving sinners, and it is NOT by listening to someone's personal experience, aka: testimony since every sinner is called under different circumstances which God has by His eternal council brought to pass.

Here is what the divinely inspired Paul wrote:

Quote
Romans 1:16-17 (ASV) "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith."

Romans 10:6-10 (ASV) "But the righteousness which is of faith saith thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down:) or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (That is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach: because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Ephesians 1:13 (ASV) "...in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,"

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (ASV) "And for this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when ye received from us the word of the message, [even the word] of God, ye accepted [it] not [as] the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also worketh in you that believe."


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Re: Learning Presuppositional Apologetics [Re: ReformedDisciple] #55088
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:24 PM
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:24 PM
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Tom Offline OP
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When I used the words "So do I", I thought I was being clear that I agreed with Pilgrim.

Tom

Re: Learning Presuppositional Apologetics [Re: Tom] #55091
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:52 AM
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:52 AM
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Dallas, Tx USA
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Originally Posted by Tom
When I used the words "So do I", I thought I was being clear that I agreed with Pilgrim.

Tom


I apologize Tom, I wasn't meaning to argue, although...


Originally Posted by Tom
So do I, though I do know that ones testimony of what the Lord has done in a person's life can be powerful.

Tom


The bold word here and what was said thereafter led me to believe you were saying that one's testimony was equivalent in "changing power" as the Gospel. Though here has the same effect as but, if I'm not mistaken. I do, however, sincerely apologize if I misread what you said or misinterpreted what you meant. hugs hugs

I only meant to clarify..

Re: Learning Presuppositional Apologetics [Re: Tom] #55094
Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:29 AM
Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:29 AM
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Tom Offline OP
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Apology accepted.
The testimony part is only to point out the transforming power of the Gospel.
I have friends who have been alcoholics, that made their wives and children's lives terrible. One friend for example was at the point of suicide, when he found himself crying out to God and God answered him and through a series of meetings with a pastor he became a changed man. That was probably around 20 years ago now and he still has not had a drink. He now lives to glorify the Lord.
It was the Lord who set him free, but for those who know this man, knowing what he was like before and after, all I can say is, thankyou Lord!
No his testimony can not save anyone; but it sure can encourage people.
The Lord actually used the lives of Christians to make me interested in finding out what Christianity was all about nearly 40 years ago now.

Tom


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