Donations for the month of July


We have received a total of $0 in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Search

Member Spotlight
lazarus
lazarus
Morgantown, WV
Posts: 88
Joined: April 2001
Show All Member Profiles 
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics6,652
Posts51,299
Members928
Most Online373
Mar 5th, 2017
Top Posters(All Time)
Pilgrim 13,471
Tom 3,485
chestnutmare 2,917
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,762
RJ_ 1,582
MarieP 1,578
gotribe 1,060
Top Posters(30 Days)
Pilgrim 37
Tom 32
John_C 4
Recent Posts
Conspiracy?
by Pilgrim. Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:34 AM
The PCA's Slide Into the Homosexual Abyss Accelerates
by Anthony C.. Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:41 PM
Apologetics
by Tom. Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:34 AM
Learning Presuppositional Apologetics
by Tom. Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:29 AM
Starting Out
by ReformedDisciple. Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:41 AM
Is the Following Legit?
by Tom. Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:08 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Apologetics #55034
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:14 PM
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 38
Dallas, Tx USA
ReformedDisciple Offline OP
Newbie
ReformedDisciple  Offline OP
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 38
Dallas, Tx USA
What verses would I refer to when those who's response to my explaining and expounding upon scripture or doctrine is "that's your (or if I'm citing, "someone's") opinion" and proceed to recite John 14:26 or verses similar?

Last edited by Movinforward86; Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:40 PM.
Re: Apologetics [Re: ReformedDisciple] #55038
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:23 PM
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 38
Dallas, Tx USA
ReformedDisciple Offline OP
Newbie
ReformedDisciple  Offline OP
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 38
Dallas, Tx USA
I guess what I'm asking is essentially: What is the best or most proper response or apologetic to those who believe in personal revelation from God or the Spirit in discerning or interpreting the Scriptures, referencing John 14:26?

Re: Apologetics [Re: ReformedDisciple] #55039
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:19 PM
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,473
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,473
NH, USA
1. Let's look at the text and see what it actually means. grin

Quote
John 14:25-26 (ASV) "These things have I spoken unto you, while [yet] abiding with you. But the Comforter, [even] the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you."

2. The audience to which Jesus was speaking was the gathering of His closest disciples whom He had commissioned to preach the gospel throughout the world. It is to them that He is specifically given this promise of the sending of the Holy Spirit for two reasons, in this context.
- He will teach them "all things"
- He will bring to remembrance all that Jesus had spoken to them while on earth.

The two "alls" are inseparable. There is no justification to separate the two so that on the one hand, a recollection of what was spoken would be given and on the other, everything which Jesus did not speak would be revealed directly by the Spirit sans means. The meaning here is that the words which Jesus spoke in their presence throughout His earthly ministry would not be a) remembered completely, and b) comprehended in their fullness without the Spirit's enlightenment (cf. Jh 2:22; 12:16).

3. What you are faced with with such individuals is a denial of the closing of the Canon and an embracing of extra-biblical revelation which is a lengthy subject. You might want to look through the many articles on The Highway [url=http://the-highway.com/]website[/i] in the following two sections:
- The Charismatic Movement
- Calvinism and the Reformed Faith > Sola Scriptura

4. Lastly, R.C. Sproul, Sr. once said that when he met someone who said, "The Spirit told me ... such and such," and thus you (Sproul) must acknowledge that it is true, he would reply that the Spirit told him (Sproul) that what this person was espousing was horse pucky and to reject and ignore it." rofl


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Apologetics [Re: ReformedDisciple] #55041
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:15 AM
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 38
Dallas, Tx USA
ReformedDisciple Offline OP
Newbie
ReformedDisciple  Offline OP
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 38
Dallas, Tx USA
Okay, now for further query: how do I explain to a person (of this belief) the necessity of discernment of Spirit and mind? How do I help them understand that God doesn't speak that way to people anymore, and that it's his own feelings/desires? Also, I have a question for myself. How does the Spirit speak to us today? What is considered "being led by the Spirit"? scratch1

Re: Apologetics [Re: ReformedDisciple] #55042
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:54 PM
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:54 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,473
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,473
NH, USA


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Apologetics [Re: ReformedDisciple] #55054
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:29 PM
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 38
Dallas, Tx USA
ReformedDisciple Offline OP
Newbie
ReformedDisciple  Offline OP
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 38
Dallas, Tx USA
Okay, I've read it.

Now, I would ask if maybe someone could give me an example of putting it all into an understandable summary for a response to a non-cessationist? I work better off of examples rather than completely formulating my own, at least for now.

Re: Apologetics [Re: ReformedDisciple] #55056
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:27 PM
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,473
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,473
NH, USA
Try posting your question here: ExCharisma. grin

My argument, along with some others, is that IF God's revelation has not ceased:
1. Since any 'communication' comes directly from God, then it MUST OF NECESSITY be on equal authority as Scripture it being inspired, inerrant and infallible.

2. If that is therefore true, then it is an addition to God's written Word which is in direct violation of Rev 22:18,19.

FYI, in the Charismatic Movement section there are a number of articles which deal with this subject and the particular venues which such alleged divine communication are said to come, e.g., tongues and prophecy.


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Apologetics [Re: ReformedDisciple] #55059
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:30 PM
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,487
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,487
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
I agree with what Pilgrim said here. However, I remember a response way back when I was struggling with this issue, that I received when I said to a Charismatic basically what Pilgrim said.
The following comes from memory, so it might not be the persons exact words.
"In answering this, let me answer it by asking a question, that in effect answers what you said.
Was every real prophecy that was said in biblical times, recorded in Scripture?
If you answer no (which I am sure you will) then you have in essence answered one of the main reasons why I am not a Cessationist. To be sure, anything said must not contradict God's Word and although it is true the canon of Scripture is closed, it should become obvious that these gifts are still in operation and the gifts have not ceased."

It has been quite a while, sinse I actually studied this subject with any depth; so I actually can not remember what I came up with concerning what this man said.
What Pilgrim said just brought back this man's answer to me.
I thought perhaps, I need a little reminder in the hope I remember. Perhaps, it might even become a fruitful discussion?

Tom

Re: Apologetics [Re: ReformedDisciple] #55061
Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:30 PM
Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:30 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 38
Dallas, Tx USA
ReformedDisciple Offline OP
Newbie
ReformedDisciple  Offline OP
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 38
Dallas, Tx USA
Thanks to you both for your input! I will be sure to peruse the ExCharisma section.

As to you, Tom, are you hoping for discussion in this thread?

Also, to Pilgrim, I would think this subject falls under this category also due to the nature of my question. Bear in mind I'm not creating division here... only attempting to clarify so as not to go outside the group guidelines. I want to be sure to post appropriately. compute

I appreciate you both!

Am I not making my question clear, though? I was wanting some scripture references to pull from against someone who says that the spirit has spoken to them... in every kind of case. I think audibly or emotionally would be the two most common.

Re: Apologetics [Re: ReformedDisciple] #55062
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:32 PM
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,473
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,473
NH, USA
Originally Posted by ReformedDisciple
Am I not making my question clear, though? I was wanting some scripture references to pull from against someone who says that the spirit has spoken to them... in every kind of case. I think audibly or emotionally would be the two most common.

Do not give in to the tendency to look at the Bible as an encyclopedia. nope Answering such people is typically difficult due to the fact that doctrine is established from "The Analogy of Faith", i.e., comparing Scripture with Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation. Rarely will you find the proverbial 'silver bullet' that will slay the error. And, the truth is, "A man with a doctrine is no match for a man with an experience!" [Linked Image]

What you are looking for is contained in several areas of study, e.g., the divine inspiration of the Bible, the formation and close of the canon, the purpose of the ecstatic gifts and how they fit into the formation of the Church, the authority of ALL of divine revelation, etc., etc. Typically, those who promote a non-cessationist position are not given to objective truth but rather emotionalism so trying to offer a rational argument from the Bible is often an exercise in futility. If you haven't learned already, hopefully you will... You need to make a judgment whether to engage someone on a particular topic or to shake the dust of your sandals and walk away. Even the Lord Christ, who had all wisdom, told His disciples "Let them alone: they are blind guides. And if the blind guide the blind, both shall fall into a pit."


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Apologetics [Re: ReformedDisciple] #55063
Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:32 AM
Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,487
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,487
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
ReformedDisciple
The reason I post that was it brought back memories from when I was struggling with this issue.
When I used that arguement against a Charismatic, I thought it might be helpful to show the kind of response you can expect.
I only wish I could remember how to answer them.
Tom

Re: Apologetics [Re: ReformedDisciple] #55064
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:43 AM
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 38
Dallas, Tx USA
ReformedDisciple Offline OP
Newbie
ReformedDisciple  Offline OP
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 38
Dallas, Tx USA
Thanks guys! You both are a great help! I appreciate the advice and warning, Pilgrim. So I have a new question, as an aside: Doesn't it say in the bible somewhere in the NT, not in the gospels; after a long list of sins types, it calls them idolatry, one being drunkenness? I could've sworn it ended like "drunkenness, which is idolatry."

Any clue?

Re: Apologetics [Re: ReformedDisciple] #55066
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:04 AM
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,473
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,473
NH, USA
I don't know of such a verse. :sad:

The closet verse that came to mine was Col 3:5 which speaks of idolatry, but drunkenness isn't included. And, vice versa, there is Gal 5:19-21.


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Apologetics [Re: ReformedDisciple] #55073
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:38 PM
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 38
Dallas, Tx USA
ReformedDisciple Offline OP
Newbie
ReformedDisciple  Offline OP
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 38
Dallas, Tx USA
Yeah... I've looked at those. I need to re-watch the video I heard it mentioned in. "Powerful talk on overcoming addiction" by Jeff Durbin. He makes the connection that Alcoholism (formerly known as drunkenness) is idolatry, and therefore not a "disease" but instead a form of sin and a worship problem. Essentially 'misguided worship'.

I had someone ask me to show them where it was at in scripture calling drunkenness idolatry..

Re: Apologetics [Re: ReformedDisciple] #55076
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:55 AM
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:55 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,473
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,473
NH, USA
Originally Posted by ReformedDisciple
Yeah... I've looked at those. I need to re-watch the video I heard it mentioned in. "Powerful talk on overcoming addiction" by Jeff Durbin. He makes the connection that Alcoholism (formerly known as drunkenness) is idolatry, and therefore not a "disease" but instead a form of sin and a worship problem. Essentially 'misguided worship'.

Calling drunkenness, idolatry, is a bit of a stretch, IMO. The Bible doesn't associate drunkenness with idolatry and I find no biblical warrant to do so. To use Mr. Durbin's hermeneutical gymnastics one could make the case that an excess of or strong affection or even attraction for anything could be called "idolatry" because you aren't 100% given over to loving God and Him alone with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. The biblical teaching is that idolatry is substituting a man-made god, whether physical, intellectual and/or emotional, for the true living God. And in doing so, exalting whatever it may be to the status which belongs to God. Paul wrote that sinful man exchanges the truth for a lie and worships a false god of their own making.

Quote
Romans 1:18-25 (ASV) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature [that which was created] rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 26 guests, and 116 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
ReformedDisciple, Micki Bowman, Nigel J, wischnotes, Dutch Michael
928 Registered Users
Shout Box
July
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30 31
Today's Birthdays
Persuaded
Popular Topics(Views)
780,015 Gospel truth
Page Time: 0.056s Queries: 16 (0.003s) Memory: 2.9874 MB (Peak: 3.2975 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-07-23 13:23:25 UTC