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If You are Baptized you are not saved? #56125
Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:46 PM
Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:46 PM
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I was following a discussion between other Reformed Christians and it was actually getting quite heated.
I guess what really got the conversation going is someone saying if a person is not baptized they are not a Christian.

When people disagreed saying all Christians need to be baptized and if they do not want to; it is an indication they probably not saved.

The other person said that all Reformed Christians agree that if one is not baptized they are not saved.

That really got the conversation going.
Then one person agreeing with the person said “Christian, does not equal saved.”
Then they posted Acts 8:13 and John 6:66 to prove it.
I read these verse as well as a few Reformed Commentaries and still can not understand where this person is coming from.

Any thoughts?

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:19 PM.
Re: If You are Baptized you are not saved? [Re: Tom] #56128
Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:59 PM
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Hi Tom,

Luke 23:40~43 reads, " But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deed: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily, I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. " KJV The second thief recognized he was under just condemnation for his sinful deeds. He called to Jesus as Lord and asked to remember him in Jesus' kingdom. In I Corinthians 12:3 b it says " and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Spirit. " KJV The second thief was born again and converted on his cross, recognizing his condemnation for his sinful deeds and addressing Jesus as Lord by the Spirit and ended up in heaven that day. There was no baptism. Obedience to baptism is the outward profession of the inward reality of a person being forgiven and saved ( remission of sins ) as seen in Acts 2:38 as an example. True believers ought to be baptized ( not necessary unto salvation, for in this case baptism would be a work added unto faith and sinners are justified by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone ). This look at baptism is based upon The London Baptist Confession of Faith whereas in The Westminster Confession of Faith it looks at baptism differently. Pilgrim would be more familiar with the Westminster Confession than I am.

Rick Bates

Re: If You are Baptized you are not saved? [Re: Rick Bates] #56129
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:35 PM
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:35 PM
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Rick

Thank you, that is basically my thoughts on the issue and I have read similar thoughts by RC Sproul.
In fact someone even posted something short written by RC Sproul along those lines.
However the response they received is that although those were interesting thoughts. They were not what he was talking about. He left it at that, leaving me to scratch my head.
Then someone else posted that basically what he was talking about is “Christian does not equal saved” using Acts 8:13 and John 6:66 to prove it. To which others of the same mind agreed.
But leaving others such as myself scratching our heads even more.
By the way, the person even said that RC Sproul and all Reformed Christian agreed with him, or they are not Reformed.

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:38 PM.
Re: If You are Baptized you are not saved? [Re: Rick Bates] #56130
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:38 PM
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick
Obedience to baptism is the outward profession of the inward reality of a person being forgiven and saved (remission of sins)...

Well, my favorite Baptist quote. wink IF baptism IS a sign of an inward reality, i.e., regeneration by the Spirit and the requisite credible profession of faith, then de facto, EVERYONE who is baptized MUST BE saved. But truly you do not believe that, correct? Baptism is not a sign of anyone's salvation but rather it is the display of the Gospel; as the water washes away the filth from the body, so does Christ's blood wash away a true believer's sins. There are myriad people who have submitted to baptism who haven't a smidgen of true saving faith.

As to the rest of what you wrote... BigThumbUp Baptism is NOT a requirement unto salvation. But a true believer will willing submit to baptism if possible since it is a biblical sacrament/ordinance. And let's take that a step further and state that the [i]mode of baptism[/b] is not a fundamental requirement unto salvation. Too many Baptists/Baptist churches insist that immersion is the only mode and anything else is spurious and thus membership in "their" church is denied unless you submit to baptism by immersion, even though you may have a credible profession of faith. Tom, a professing Baptist understands this pernicious error and agrees that faith + immersion = salvation is a serious error. grin


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Re: If You are Baptized you are not saved? [Re: Tom] #56131
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:11 PM
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:11 PM
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Pilgrim

I agree with you that baptism is not an outward confession of an inward reality. I do not think that is what the 1689 LBCF says it is either.
Everything else Rick said, I am in agreement with however.
However, that really was not the reason I started this thread.
Perhaps you can comment on that?

Tom

Re: If You are Baptized you are not saved? [Re: Tom] #56133
Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:27 PM
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I disagree with those who stated,

Quote
if a person is not baptized they are not a Christian.

When people disagreed saying all Christians need to be baptized and if they do not want to; it is an indication they probably not saved.

1. Baptism is simply not a means to salvation. It is nowhere taught in Scripture that a person absolutely MUST, repent, believe, and be baptized IN ORDER TO be saved. nope

2. There can be many reasons why a person has not been baptized or they choose not to be baptized.
  • They are not knowledgeable of or misunderstand the purpose of baptism.
  • There is no doctrinally sound church in their area that they can in good conscience submit to and be baptized by them.
  • They have already been baptized as an infant and do not believe they need to be baptized again.
  • ??????

The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter XXVIII is quite clear on the salient issues raised among other matters re: baptism:

Quote
V. Although it is a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance,[13] yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it:[14] or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.[15]

VI. The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered;[16] yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongs unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in His appointed time.[17]

VII. The sacrament of Baptism is but once to be administered unto any person.[18]


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Re: If You are Baptized you are not saved? [Re: Tom] #56134
Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:32 AM
Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:32 AM
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Thank you.
The latest thing the other person said may shed some more light on what he is trying to say.
He basically said while someone is saved when the believe. They are not “Christians” until they are baptized. Christian does not equal saved.
They reiterated that all Reformed Christians believe this.

Funny thing though, this is a new one on me and some of my favourite theologians are Paedo-Baptist’s.
Tom

Re: If You are Baptized you are not saved? [Re: Tom] #56135
Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom
The latest thing the other person said may shed some more light on what he is trying to say.
He basically said while someone is saved when the believe. They are not “Christians” until they are baptized. Christian does not equal saved.
They reiterated that all Reformed Christians believe this.

1. re: "saved does not equal Christian"... ridiculous giggle When a sinner is regenerated, they yearn to be reconciled to God due to the deep conviction of sin and they flee to Christ in order to have their sins remitted and to be clothed with His perfect righteousness. That initial act of embracing Christ with a true saving faith continues and grows throughout that person's life which is called 'sanctification'. ONLY a true Christian desires and can follow Christ. And those who do are called Christians for they belong to Him. Yes, typically, baptism follows repentance and faith, but it may be delayed for an indeterminate time due to circumstances and/or proper teaching as I mentioned above.

2. re: "all Reformed Christians believe this"... again, ridiculous rolleyes2 Where did this person obtain this statistic? In what Reformed Confession, Creed or Catechism did he read that true believers become Christians when and only after they are baptized? And most importantly, from the sole and final authority, the Bible, where does this idea exist? Is there an explicit, didactic statement in the Scriptures that perhaps I have overlooked in my 46 years of reading the Bible and hundreds of doctrinally solid books? scratchchin


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Re: If You are Baptized you are not saved? [Re: Pilgrim] #56136
Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:08 PM
Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:08 PM
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Their and I say “their” because there were a few of them who claimed to be Reformed Presbyterians used Acts 8:13 and John 6:66 as their justification for saying this.
I have never heard this myself before either. They also make the claim that even RC Sproul believed this because he was a Reformed Presbyterian. Yet I have searched for evidence of this and have not found this in his teaching.

I do wonder however, because if I remember correctly one of these who believe this also believes in “Presumptive Regeneration”.
Could this be a clue into why they believe this?

Tom

Re: If You are Baptized you are not saved? [Re: Tom] #56137
Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom
I do wonder however, because if I remember correctly one of these who believe this also believes in “Presumptive Regeneration”.
Could this be a clue into why they believe this?

FYI, "Reformed Presbyterians" is usually understood as a particular group of Presbyterians who are "covenanters" vs. regular Presbyterians.

As you well know, those who hold to "Presumptive Regeneration" believe that infants of believing parents (or even one believing parent), aka: covenant children, are to be presumed to be regenerate and thus are to be deemed Christians... UNLESS, they at some later time in life they totally repudiate the faith. Of course, there is no consensus as to what that means. In practice, these presumed individuals can and many do, live openly sinful lives yet are still deemed to be saved/Christians. If you are thinking that this seems oddly similar to the "Carnal Christian" theory, you would be right. wink


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Re: If You are Baptized you are not saved? [Re: Pilgrim] #56138
Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:28 PM
Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:28 PM
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Actually, I know you do not have the gift of being able to read minds. But when you said:
Quote
If you are thinking that this seems oddly similar to the "Carnal Christian" theory, you would be right. wink
That is exactly what I was thinking. wink

Tom

Re: If You are Baptized you are not saved? [Re: Tom] #56148
Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:33 PM
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Tom,
What you referred to in your initial post and I quote you, quoting them, " Christian does not equal saved. " Backing this up they quoted Acts 8:13 and John 6:66, I believe it would have been better for them to say " Believers and disciples does not equal saved. " In Acts 8:13 a it reads " Then Simon himself believed also: and he continued with Phillip, " If one were to take this statement out of the biblical context, you could say Simon believed, ie; became a Christian and was baptized. If the context is looked at, in Acts 8:20 - 8:23, Peter calls it like it is, that even though Simon " believed ", he was still unregenerate. His belief and baptism meant nothing. Just because one believes, it does not mean they are saved. In looking at John 6:66 it says, " From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. " The word disciple means learner or follower of Jesus. Even though these people were learners and followers of Jesus, does not mean they were saved. Many at the judgement as seen in Matthew 7:21 will be surprised at what Jesus will say " Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. " Not all that make a profession of faith are saved. There were disciples in John 6:66 who turned from following Jesus, for they were never saved in the first place and also many will be surprised at the judgement, for even though they did many things in their following of Jesus, Jesus says in Matthew 7:23, " And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. " The bottom line is a truly regenerate and converted Christian equals saved to say it like them. Back to Simon in Acts 8, Peter said to Simon in Acts 8:20 " Thy money perish with thee, " and in verse 21, " Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. " Peter told Simon to repent of his wickedness and pray to God that he might be forgiven. Simon asked Peter to pray for him, that God's judgement might not fall on him. There was no true repentance, for Simon only wanted a free ticket out of hell so to speak and many who profess true Christianity today are duped into believing in some quick and easy decisional regeneration call from the preacher or evangelist. From Charles Finney to Billy and now his son Franklin Graham, they have sent millions on the broad path that leads to destruction. Damnable heretics! those who preach a cheesy easy gospel. Down through the ages many from biblical times to the present believe " angels of light ", Satan's false teachers and believe a " gospel " that is not the truth. These people in this website from where you are quoting are throwing's their " truths " around and it makes me wonder whether these people are truly regenerate or not and to drag someone like R.C. Sproul into this and say that this is what he believed and all reformed people believe this is pure hogwash. R.C. was absolutely sound in his Soteriology and so are multitudes of others whether Presbyterian, Reformed Baptist, Baptist, Congregational ( John Owen was Congregational ) or even some Anglicans like J.I. Packer. The problem is under the umbrella of Christianity, there are false teachers and false brethren. The Bible warns us of such. Truly regenerate Reformers differ basically in Church government and the mode and recipients of baptism and this can be seen in The Westminster Confession of Faith and The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. The Baptist Confession was taken largely from the Westminster Confession except in the differences I mentioned. Both groups of men work together in the furtherance of the truth and the Ligioneer Conference each year has both Presbyterian preachers and Baptist preachers. Both confessions of faith are like mini theology books, established so that those who are true believers have a quick reference to many theological subjects and the meanings thereof. Baptism is not essential to a person being saved, but is an ordinance commanded in the Bible as something we are to do as Jesus said in Matthew 28:19, " Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: " Obedience to God's word is central to the true believer's life and so not obeying baptism should raise concern to the elders of a local church. All Scripture quotes are KJV.

Rick

Re: If You are Baptized you are not saved? [Re: Rick Bates] #56149
Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:36 PM
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Pilgrim,
On the topic of baptism, yes I am a Baptist yep who 1. Has read his Bible and sound doctrinal material for the past 39 years, not quite as long as you grin and 2. I adhere to The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith not as primary, but secondarily to Scripture. I hereby quote the Baptist Confession which looks to Scripture as it's basis on baptism, Chapter 29, sections 1 - 4 1. Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be unto the party baptized, a sign of his fellowship with him, in his death and resurrection; of his being engrafted into him; of remission of sins; and of giving up into God, through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life. ( Rom 6:3-5; Col 2:12; Gal; Mar 1:4; Act 22 :16; Rom 6:4 ) 2. Those who do actually profess repentance towards God, faith in and obedience to, our Lord Jesus Christ, are the only proper subjects of this ordinance. ( Mar 16:16; Acts 36-37; 2:41; 8:12; 18:8 ) 3. The outward element to be used in this ordinance is water, wherein the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. ( Mat 28:19-20; Act 8:38 ) 4. Immersion, or dipping of the person in water, is necessary to the due administration of this ordinance. ( Mat 3:16; Joh 3:23 ) Baptism is the outward sign of what has happened inwardly in a believer as seen in section one. Section 2 describes those and only those who can be baptized, which clearly excludes infants. In section 4 we see that the mode of baptism is to be by immersion or dipping, either way the person is put into the water and not sprinkled. I hereby quote the Strong's concordance on the greek word for baptize which is baptizo ~ to make whelmed ( i.e.) fully wet; used in the New Testament of ceremonial ablution, especially or technically of the ordinance of Christian baptism. I have attached a link to a debate between John MacArthur and R.C. Sproul on the topic of Baptism. It is quite clear MacArthur defends and thoroughly explains baptism by using scripture alone.

https://youtu.be/2VzUOiNtgio

Rick

Last edited by Rick Bates; Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:36 PM.
Re: If You are Baptized you are not saved? [Re: Tom] #56150
Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:13 PM
Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:13 PM
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I am more than familiar with the arguments for credo baptism. grin I had the opportunity to publicly debate John Reisinger c. 40 years ago, which I thoroughly enjoyed. My personal view is wedged between credo and paedo. giggle

Re: the definition of the Greek words for baptism (bapto, baptizo) is NOT "immersion". It can mean either immersion, affusion or aspersion. Context determines the meaning in a passage. IF you haven't done so, I would highly recommend John Murray's book, Christian Baptism; excellent exegesis of all the salient passages in both the OT and NT. Over the years I have determined that it is an exercise in futility to argue about baptism as it is often held by too many to be THE fundamental doctrine over all others, which I find sad.


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Re: If You are Baptized you are not saved? [Re: Pilgrim] #56151
Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:09 PM
Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:09 PM
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Just so you know, I never meant this thread to even resemble a debate between Paedos and Credos. In fact quite the opposite is the case. I was dealing with Paedos and needed the help of a Paedo.

Tom

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