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Pilgrim
Pilgrim
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved? [Re: Cranmer] #49788
Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:08 AM
Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:08 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,895
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Pilgrim Offline

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Originally Posted By: Cranmer
Second of all, you seem to be completely ignorant of the fact that Clark asserted that faith is assent/belief. The faculty psychology to which you are appealing is not biblical. The soul, heart, mind are all one thing. Furthermore, the distinction between faith and trust is tautological. Faith and trust are the same thing so saying that trust is something required in addition to faith is saying nothing more than that faith requires faith or belief requires belief. Assenting to the doctrines of the Bible means that you not only understand them but that you also believe them. I understand many things that I do not believe. I understand Islam's basic doctrines but I do not believe them. To believe the Bible is the same thing as conversion. To understand the Bible is not conversion. Many atheists understand the Bible but do they believe it?

No.

1. I am definitely not "ignorant of the fact that Clark asserted that faith is assent/belief". And this is the basis for my repeated question to you: Do you hold that faith is a simple assent to the truths of Scripture?... of which you still have not answered.

2. Faith is NOT synonymous with intellectual assent, but biblically, as Berkhof rightly elucidates in his Systematic Theology, and from which the June Article of the Month is taken, faith is fudicia, i.e., it involves the mind, affections and will; the entire man. One can embrace and defend with most vigor that the Bible is the inspired Word of God and all that it teaches yet be unregenerate/unconverted. May I suggest further study of Scripture vs. Gordon Clark on your part?

3. My contention is against Sandemanianism and all those who espouse it.


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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved? [Re: Cranmer] #49789
Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:19 AM
Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: Cranmer
God ALONE has "free" will. Free will is defined as being determined by NOTHING outside of Himself. God is completely independent of His creation. He is immutable and not subject to emotional paroxysms.

True... God's will is never nor can be influenced by external sources. HOWEVER, God's will IS totally determined according to His very being; His nature. Thus, God being inexorably holy can only choose to do that which is holy. Negatively, God cannot sin. In this sense, God does not have a "free" will, i.e., a will that can be exercised contrary to the nature, which is what all religions other than Calvinism assert.

How many times do I have to repeat this to you? GOD and man can ONLY choose that which is according to their respective natures. WITHIN the boundary of one's nature, one can "freely" choose but not otherwise. The fact that God has foreordained ALL THINGS does not contradict the fact that men do all that God has ordained yet their will is never forced by God. This is one of the fundamental axioms of the Reformed Faith. Is this something you embrace, or do you reject this also?


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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: Cranmer] #49790
Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:47 PM
Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:47 PM
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
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Tom  Offline
Needs to get a Life
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Charlie

I am in a bit of shock at the accusations you have made about Pilgrim.
Personally, it appears to me (giving you the benefit of the doubt) that you are only reading portions of Pilgrim's posts then jumping to unwarranted conclusions.
I would like to say more, but I don't even know where to start!

Tom

Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: Pilgrim] #49792
Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:58 PM
Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:58 PM
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
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Tom  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Pilgrim
Originally Posted By: Cranmer
I should add that my contention for monergistic sanctification is not one that produces no results in thinking and behavior. The point is that IF we make ANY progress in the Christian life it is SOLELY the result of sovereign grace:

1. I hold to synergistic sanctification which is not one that denies that salvation is ALL of sovereign grace. There is nothing that a true Christian thinks, says or does which has any merit whatsoever in regard to salvation.

2. The majority who hold to "monergistic sanctification" denigrate or even deny regeneration and its results, i.e., a RADICAL transformation of the soul. Additionally, the majority who hold to "monergistic sanctification" insist that the regenerated sinner is "totally depraved", which is antithetical and totally contradictory.

3. Clark's statement is certainly correct on its face. It certainly does not stand in opposition to what I hold in regard to "synergistic sanctification" which is confessional.


When it comes to sanctification my understanding is a synergistic/monergistic sanctification. It is man that must press on to the mark of his high calling in Christ Jesus. But man can't do this without looking to Jesus. The moment man takes his eyes off of Christ and tries to grow in sanctification, he ultimately fails.(Phil.2:12-13 & Heb.12:1-2)

If man was still "totally depraved" after they have been regenerated and justified the results of regeneration would not be evident and they would have no desire to grow in Christ. To add a little bit to that thought I believe it is human effort that God uses to accomplish their sanctification.
In other words these are the arenas where God works.

In regeneration man is definitely passive, however it is clear that in sanctification man is definitely not passive. But neither can a Christian say his works have merit, because it is God who actually gives the increase in our progressive sanctification.
In a way, I am not sure it is wise to use the terms monergistic and synergistic in the same way one might use them for regeneration.

Last edited by Tom; Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:59 PM.
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved? [Re: Anonymous] #49797
Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:03 AM
Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:03 AM
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PA, USA, Gettysburg, in Adams ...
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Robert B Foster Offline
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PA, USA, Gettysburg, in Adams ...
Dear Charlie,

Let me know if it is alright to call you by your first name. Perhaps I could be some help to all in this conversation. I need to ask you a question first, in order to help me better understand where you are coming from:

Do you believe that when one is truly converted that they are still totally depraved? Let me qualify the question -I am not speaking about the flesh, for we all know that the flesh is totally depraved. What I am asking is if in conversion we are given a new nature, such that the change in us due to the Spirit who lives in us is more than simply an intellectual change, or are we as totally depraved in regeneration as we were prior to salvation? Maybe you don't have an either or answer. That's fine. I just need to know in as succinct a way possible your thoughts relative to the question.

Thanks Charlie.

Bob

Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: Ruth] #51831
Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:38 PM
Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:38 PM
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Posts: 123
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Lynda Offline
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Ruth, I must have read the same things you have. What did Calvin actually teach?

Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: Lynda] #51838
Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:31 AM
Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:31 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,895
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Pilgrim  Offline

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Posts: 13,895
NH, USA
Calvin taught nothing different than what historic confessional Reformed theology teaches... That regeneration precedes faith and is most necessary for all men are born with a God-hating corrupt nature and thus have no ability to repent and believe nor do they have the slightest desire to do so (Total Inability/Total Depravity). Without regeneration (new birth wrought by the secret and sovereign work of the Holy Spirit) NO man will come to Christ (John 5:40; 6:44,65.)


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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav [Re: Anonymous] #56544
Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:35 AM
Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:35 AM
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042Dave Offline
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People who must "choose" to believe don't believe but force themselves to give mental assent. Salvation is an experience that causes you to believe. Just as sitting in a chair needs no decision to believe that you are.

Faith (evidence, substance) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that causes saved people to believe.

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