Posts: 118
Joined: July 2025
|
|
|
|
Forums31
Topics8,375
Posts56,575
Members992
| |
Most Online4,295 May 22nd, 2026
|
|
|
#59688
Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:14 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893 Likes: 49
Needs to get a Life
|
OP
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893 Likes: 49 |
Has anyone watched Joel Beeke’s series on the book of Revelation? I have watched him on Revelation chapter one. Easy to listen to.
Last edited by Tom; Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:15 PM.
|
|
1 member likes this:
SovereignGrace |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2025
Posts: 118 Likes: 4
Certified Flunky
|
Certified Flunky
Joined: Jul 2025
Posts: 118 Likes: 4 |
Dr. Greg Bahsen did a series on Revelation and it’s on sermon audio. Dr. Bruce Gore has one on YouTube as well.
“The foundation of knowledge is God’s revelation.” Dr. Greg Bahnsen
“In the New Testament the Lord Jesus Christ appears in order to fulfill the Old Testament hope of the Messiah. He presents himself as the king who has come to establish his kingdom in anticipation of his universal rule.” Dr. Kenneth Gentry
“Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants.” William Penn
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,046 Likes: 285
Head Honcho
|
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,046 Likes: 285 |
Yes, Dr. Joel Beeke is an excellent teacher and pastor. We have heard several lectures by him and have had the pleasure of meeting with him to speak on several issues.
simul iustus et peccator
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2025
Posts: 118 Likes: 4
Certified Flunky
|
Certified Flunky
Joined: Jul 2025
Posts: 118 Likes: 4 |
Dr. Beeke is an excellent expositor of the scriptures. I’d highly recommend him to anyone!
“The foundation of knowledge is God’s revelation.” Dr. Greg Bahnsen
“In the New Testament the Lord Jesus Christ appears in order to fulfill the Old Testament hope of the Messiah. He presents himself as the king who has come to establish his kingdom in anticipation of his universal rule.” Dr. Kenneth Gentry
“Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants.” William Penn
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893 Likes: 49
Needs to get a Life
|
OP
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893 Likes: 49 |
I found a couple of critiques of Joel Beeke’s series on the book of Revelation. They come from people who are Amillennial Partial Preterists. I am leaving two critiques, because they touch on a few different aspects. I personally am a fan of Joel Beeke’s. Not because I have a a settled view on such matters. Though, at present I lean a bit towards the Partial Preterist side. Which if I understand correctly, people such as RC Sproul also did. ——————————- A Pastoral Strength with a Historical Weakness: A Critique of Joel Beeke’s Revelation Series
Dr. Joel Beeke’s series on Revelation shines with the warm pastoral tone for which he is rightly known. His expositions are deeply Christ-centered, comfort-laden, and devotional. He consistently shepherds his hearers to persevere in the face of trials, to cling to the Lamb, and to hope in the ultimate victory of Christ. In a day when sensationalism dominates much teaching on Revelation, Beeke’s steady Reformed approach is refreshing. He avoids newspaper exegesis, grounds his teaching in Scripture, and applies the text to the Christian life with clarity and power. On the level of encouragement, exhortation, and pastoral application, his work is an undeniable gift to the church.
But while his series excels pastorally, it falters hermeneutically by not reckoning with the true historical and covenantal context of the book. Beeke reads Revelation primarily as a panoramic vision of the ongoing struggle of the church in the world, climaxing in the final return of Christ. While that framework has merit, it largely bypasses the original setting: Revelation was a letter written to real churches in the first century, in the shadow of the imminent destruction of Jerusalem and its temple.
The problem is not that Beeke denies first-century relevance, but that he underplays its centrality. Revelation is not merely a timeless drama of good and evil—it is a covenant lawsuit against apostate Israel, warning of the coming judgment that Jesus Himself foretold (Matt. 23–24). Its visions of beast, harlot, and city are not primarily abstractions for “the world” in general, but specific symbols of Rome and Jerusalem in their collusion against Christ and His church. The “coming” of Christ in Revelation 1:7 is drawn directly from Daniel 7:13–14 and was fulfilled in His vindication at the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70. To miss this is to miss the heartbeat of the prophecy.
By not situating Revelation firmly in its pre-70 A.D. context, Beeke’s exposition misses the redemptive-historical climax of the Old Covenant era. Revelation is not only a word of encouragement for persecuted believers throughout history; it is the Spirit’s inspired account of the definitive transition from the old creation to the new, from temple to Christ, from shadow to substance. When this is overlooked, the book becomes detached from its covenantal reality and flattened into a generalized vision of “church versus world.”
Conclusion
Joel Beeke’s series on Revelation is an excellent resource for devotional application and pastoral comfort. Yet it misses the boat when it comes to the true nature and reality of the letter. Revelation is not merely a spiritual encouragement for all ages (though it is that), but a historically anchored, covenantally charged prophecy given before the destruction of the temple. Without this lens, much of its symbolism remains obscured, its urgency blunted, and its covenantal glory muted. —————————— —————————— Where Beeke’s Revelation Series Goes Wrong
1. Dating and Historical Context
Beeke follows the traditional “late date” (Domitianic) interpretation of Revelation, which places its writing around A.D. 95. This late date divorces the book from the events of the Jewish War and the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The problem is that Revelation itself claims urgency: “the things that must soon take place” (Rev. 1:1, 3). If the book is written late, these phrases must be reinterpreted as symbols for a far-distant future, blunting the force of John’s words to the first-century churches.
Why it matters: If Revelation is read as pre-70 A.D., it comes alive as the climactic covenant lawsuit against Israel, confirming Jesus’ warnings in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. This shows God’s faithfulness in judging the old order and vindicating the church. To read it later misses this redemptive-historical hinge and makes the prophecy abstract instead of concrete.
2. The Identity of Babylon
Beeke identifies “Babylon the Great” (Rev. 17–18) primarily with Rome or with a generic “world-system” opposed to God. While Rome is certainly involved, the textual markers (seven hills, harlot imagery, the city that killed the prophets, Rev. 11:8; 18:24) point directly to Jerusalem as the harlot bride who broke covenant with Yahweh.
Why it matters: Missing Jerusalem as Babylon obscures Revelation’s central drama: God divorcing the faithless covenant partner (Israel according to the flesh) and taking His true bride, the church. This is not just a side issue; it is the very heart of covenant theology.
3. The Nature of Christ’s Coming (Rev. 1:7)
Beeke reads Revelation 1:7 as a reference to the visible, final Second Coming of Christ. But the text draws on Daniel 7:13–14, where the Son of Man comes to the Ancient of Days to receive a kingdom, not from heaven to earth. John’s allusion is about Christ’s vindication and judgment, seen in the destruction of those who pierced Him (Jerusalem).
Why it matters: This shifts the meaning of the book. Revelation is not primarily about the far-off end of history but about Christ’s enthronement, judgment on His enemies, and the inauguration of His everlasting kingdom. To postpone the fulfillment to the end of the world robs believers of seeing Christ’s present reign established in history.
4. The Temple in Revelation 11
Beeke interprets the temple in Revelation 11 as symbolic of the church or of heavenly realities. But if Revelation was written before 70 A.D., John is speaking of the actual temple in Jerusalem, which was about to be judged and destroyed, leaving only the true spiritual temple, Christ and His people.
Why it matters: Recognizing the literal temple underscores that the old covenant order was on its last breath. The destruction of that temple was not just a historical tragedy but a theologically climactic act: God tearing down the shadows because the substance had come. Beeke’s view mutes this covenantal transition.
5. Pastoral Implications of Delay
Because Beeke places so much of Revelation’s fulfillment in the distant or final future, he tends to read the book as a generic encouragement about “Christ winning in the end.” While true, this flattens the urgency of the prophecy for its original audience. The seven churches were not just waiting for a final return; they were about to witness the most seismic redemptive-historical event since the cross—the destruction of Jerusalem, confirming their place as the true covenant people.
Why it matters: If we miss that Revelation was fulfilled in the near horizon of the first century, then Christians today inherit a book that feels vague, symbolic, and disconnected from history. But if we see its immediate context, it strengthens our faith that God keeps His promises swiftly and certainly, and that Christ already reigns as King.
Conclusion
Joel Beeke’s Revelation series gives warm pastoral application but misses the interpretive center of the prophecy. By neglecting its pre-70 context, misidentifying Babylon, misreading Christ’s “coming,” and detaching the temple vision from its historical referent, Beeke turns Revelation into a timeless comfort rather than a covenantal turning point. The consequence is not just an academic quibble—it touches how Christians see God’s faithfulness in history, how we understand the transition from Old to New Covenant, and how we grasp the present reign of Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,046 Likes: 285
Head Honcho
|
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,046 Likes: 285 |
One has to decide whether the "new" discovery of the date Revelation was written; sometime before AD 70 or whether the long-standing view that John wrote Revelation was written c. AD 90 is correct. Personally, I cannot see the validity of the former and thus my tried and true sources are my guide to understanding Revelation along, of course, with the testimony I pray of the Holy Spirit. I have lots of commentaries on the book of Revelation; Premil, Postmil and of course Amil. My favorite has always been Dr. William Hendriksen's More Than Conquerors . I have had the privilege of knowing the family and been given several unpublished manuscripts that he wrote and his godly brilliance is staggering. Another 'favorite' author of mine is Dr. John H. Gerstner and lastly a dear acquaintance was Dr. John Skilton. This does not in any way my admiration for others of the past, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon and a host of others. The book of Revelation has had more attention and myriad views from the obscure, to the fanciful, even heretical to sound exegesis. One can get caught up in all this and lose the obvious truth concerning the End Times; Christ is coming again. No man knows the hour nor the day. It will happen suddenly and without warning. At His coming the world will be at its worse and if it was not for Christ's appearing even the elect might be deceived and carried away. Christ was, is, and will always be victorious, the elect will be infallibly saved, the reprobate will be cast into everlasting punishment in Hell and God's beloved children will live again in their new glorious incorruptible bodies on the New Earth where righteousness dwells. Sooooo, I let all those given to speculation about the "proper" interpretation of Revelation to themselves and argue endlessly (hopefully with some semblance of kindness). But for me, I rest in the above indisputable truths and look forward to the day when I will be given my eternal spiritual body and walk with my Savior Christ Jesus.
simul iustus et peccator
|
|
1 member likes this:
Robin |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893 Likes: 49
Needs to get a Life
|
OP
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893 Likes: 49 |
Pilgrim I thought needed to say that I need to approach this matter with humbleness. As I study the issue, as I said before at present I tentatively hold to the earlier date of the book of Revelation. However, I must emphasize the word “tentatively”. Both sides have some pretty impressive Reformed voices on their side and that alone makes me tentative. I do appreciate the spirit of the last half of what you said. It is something, we need to remember. Unfortunately, during my research and reading critiques on both sides. Both sides are not always cordial with the other side. I thought I would add something from someone who holds an early date, on why he does so. I believe the early date of Revelation—before AD 70—is the most consistent with Scripture itself, and I’d like to share why.
⸻
1. Internal Evidence Points to an Early Date
The text of Revelation gives clear signs that Jerusalem and the temple were still standing: • Revelation 11:1–2: John is told to “measure the temple.” If the temple had already been destroyed in AD 70, this would make little sense unless John was speaking of a literal structure still in existence. • Revelation 17:10: The beast is described as representing a series of kings. “Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come.” Counting the Caesars from Julius to Nero, Nero is the sixth—“the one who is.” This places the book firmly in the 60s. • Revelation 1:1, 3 & 22:6, 10: The events are said to take place “soon” and “the time is near.” The natural reading is not thousands of years away, but within the lifetime of the original hearers.
These time markers make the early date self-evident. If words like “soon” and “near” are stretched beyond their normal meaning, then the reliability of all biblical prophecy is weakened.
⸻
2. The Context of Imminent Judgment
Jesus Himself had prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem within that generation (Matt. 24:34). Revelation, written in the same apostolic period, functions as a covenant lawsuit against apostate Israel: • The harlot in Revelation 17–18 is not pagan Rome, but Jerusalem, “the city where their Lord was crucified” (Rev. 11:8). • Revelation’s imagery mirrors the Old Testament prophets (e.g., Ezekiel, Jeremiah) when pronouncing judgment on Israel for covenant breaking.
This is why the early date is not only possible, but theologically necessary: Revelation ties directly into Jesus’ Olivet Discourse and the covenantal end of the Old Covenant order in AD 70.
⸻
3. The Testimony of History
Yes, Irenaeus is often quoted for the late date, but his statement is ambiguous and can refer to John himself being seen in Domitian’s reign, not the vision being written then. Other early witnesses—such as Epiphanius and the Syriac tradition—support a Neronic context.
The “long-standing” late-date view gained traction because it supported certain eschatological systems (like futurism), but it does not outweigh the internal evidence of the text itself.
⸻
4. Christ’s Victory in History
Where I think partial preterism strengthens faith is by showing that Christ has already vindicated His Word: • The fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 proved Jesus to be the true prophet and King. • Revelation is not an obscure code, but a testimony that He judged His covenant-breaking people and established the New Covenant church as His temple (Rev. 21:22).
Thus, we don’t “lose the obvious truths” of Christ’s return by holding to an early date. Rather, we see His faithfulness both in past judgment and in future hope.
⸻
Closing
So, while I respect Hendriksen, Gerstner, and others, I would argue the early date is biblically self-evident. Revelation is not merely about the far-off end, but about the climactic end of the Old Covenant order. And that, far from being speculation, anchors us more deeply in the reliability of Christ’s Word.
Like you, I long for the day of His appearing. But I also rejoice that much of what Revelation warned has already been fulfilled, proving that Jesus’ words never fail. Tom
Last edited by Tom; Mon Aug 18, 2025 8:43 PM.
|
|
1 member likes this:
Robin |
|
|
|
|
0 members (),
147
guests, and
12
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There are no members with birthdays on this day. |
|
|
|
|