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CovenantInBlood said: speratus said: I agree that Paul's argument is not merely hypothetical; however, Paul does not say God made any vessels of dishonor.
"Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:21).
Looks to me like Paul is saying that God makes another vessel for dishonor.
I have never seen that verse translated "vessel of honor" and "vessel of dishonor." There is no indication in that verse, taken in isolation, how the vessel made by God becomes honorable or dishonorable.
CovenantInBlood opines I don't disagree that Adam sinned and, as a result, all men are condemned. Yet this condemnation was imposed by God Himself. It's not as though the condemnation is some bare natural consequence.
Who caused Adam's fall? If the devil and Adam and not God, how is that reprobation?
CovenantInBlood opines I don't disagree What do you make of God hardening Pharaoh's heart? For this God most certainly did, and not unjustly since Pharaoh was a sinner deserving only condemnation.
Luther explains how this "hardening" of Pharoah does not create fresh evil:
Bondage of the Will LET no one think, therefore, that God, where He is said to harden, or to work evil in us (for to harden is to do evil), so does the evil as though He created evil in us anew, in the same way as a malignant liquor-seller, being himself bad, would pour poison into, or mix it up in, a vessel that was not bad, where the vessel itself did nothing but receive, or passively accomplish the purpose of the malignity of the poison-mixer. For when people hear it said by us, that God works in us both good and evil, and that we from mere necessity passively submit to the working of God, they seem to imagine, that a man who is good, or not evil himself, is passive while God works evil in him: not rightly considering that God, is far from being inactive in all His creatures, and never suffers any one of them to keep holiday. But whoever wishes to understand these things let him think thus:—that God works evil in us, that is, by us, not from the fault of God, but from the fault of evil in us:—that is, as we are evil by nature, God, who is truly good, carrying us along by His own action, according to the nature of His Omnipotence, cannot do otherwise than do evil by us, as instruments, though He Himself be good; though by His wisdom, He overrules that evil well, to His own glory and to our salvation. Thus God, finding the will of Satan evil, not creating it so, but leaving it while Satan sinningly commits the evil, carries it along by His working, and moves it which way He will; though that will ceases not to be evil by this motion of God.
CovenantInBlood queries Do fallen men have any will to do evil?
Their will is in bondage to sin. There is no free will to do evil.
Last edited by speratus; Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:19 PM .
Entire Thread
Double predestination
knoxandcalvin
Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:07 PM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:40 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:43 AM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:59 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:21 PM
Re: Double predestination
J_Edwards
Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:01 PM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:46 PM
Re: Double predestination
gotribe
Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:30 PM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:28 PM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:46 PM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:57 PM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:08 PM
Re: Double predestination
J_Edwards
Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:14 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:04 PM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:17 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:41 PM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:20 PM
Re: Double predestination
Peter
Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 AM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:41 PM
Re: Double predestination
J_Edwards
Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:27 PM
Re: Double predestination
Tom
Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:50 AM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:38 AM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:48 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:36 AM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:39 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:36 PM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:07 PM
Re: Double predestination
Tom
Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:53 PM
Re: Double predestination
Tom
Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:37 AM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:24 AM
Re: Double predestination
Tom
Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:31 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:42 AM
Re: Double predestination
J_Edwards
Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:02 AM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:14 AM
Re: Double predestination
J_Edwards
Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:45 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:57 AM
Re: Double predestination
CovenantInBlood
Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:56 PM
Re: Double predestination
CovenantInBlood
Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:32 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:41 PM
Re: Double predestination
CovenantInBlood
Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:53 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:03 PM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:00 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:18 AM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:50 AM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:16 PM
Re: Double predestination
CovenantInBlood
Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:04 AM
Re: Double predestination
Joe k
Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:06 PM
Re: Double predestination
Joe k
Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:13 PM
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Pilgrim
Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:21 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:43 PM
Re: Double predestination
Joe k
Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:11 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:48 AM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:23 AM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:21 AM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:30 AM
Double predestination and Romans 11
J_Edwards
Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:52 PM
Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
Anonymous
Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:54 AM
Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
J_Edwards
Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:59 AM
Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
Anonymous
Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:42 AM
Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
J_Edwards
Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:42 PM
Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
Anonymous
Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:19 PM
Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
J_Edwards
Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:39 AM
Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
Anonymous
Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:20 AM
Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
J_Edwards
Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:24 PM
Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
Joe k
Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:42 PM
Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
Anonymous
Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:35 AM
Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
Tom
Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:46 AM
Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
Anonymous
Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:45 AM
Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
Tom
Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:43 AM
Re: Double predestination
Joe k
Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:17 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:37 AM
Re: Double predestination
Joe k
Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:56 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:52 PM
Re: Double predestination
Wes
Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:37 AM
Re: Double predestination
Joe k
Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:29 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:50 PM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:18 AM
Re: Double predestination
Joe k
Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:42 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:22 AM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:21 PM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:37 AM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:32 PM
Re: Double predestination
Joe k
Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:45 PM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:58 PM
Re: Double predestination
Joe k
Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:28 PM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:22 PM
Re: Double predestination
Joe k
Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:38 PM
Re: Double predestination
Tom
Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:10 AM
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Anonymous
Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:35 PM
Re: Double predestination
Peter
Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:34 AM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:35 AM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:13 AM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:54 AM
Re: Double predestination
Peter
Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:28 PM
Re: Double predestination
li0scc0
Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:01 PM
Re: Double predestination
Joe k
Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:22 PM
Re: Double predestination
Peter
Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:03 AM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:58 AM
Re: Double predestination
Peter
Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:33 AM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:14 AM
Re: Double predestination
Peter
Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:53 AM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:36 AM
Re: Double predestination
Peter
Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:21 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:08 AM
Re: Double predestination
Peter
Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:24 PM
Re: Double predestination
William
Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:05 AM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:07 AM
Re: Double predestination
J_Edwards
Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:16 PM
Re: Double predestination
Anonymous
Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:04 PM
Re: Double predestination
J_Edwards
Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:47 PM
Re: Double predestination
CovenantInBlood
Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:28 PM
Re: Double predestination
William
Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:29 PM
Re: Double predestination
William
Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:14 AM
Re: Double predestination
William
Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:23 AM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:57 AM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:25 PM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:50 PM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:18 AM
Re: Double predestination
Wes
Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:04 AM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:12 AM
Re: Double predestination
Wes
Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:26 PM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:18 PM
Re: Double predestination
J_Edwards
Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:10 AM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:28 PM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:24 PM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:10 PM
Re: Double predestination
Adopted
Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:50 PM
Re: Double predestination
J_Edwards
Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:58 PM
Privation of the Good
J_Edwards
Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:58 PM
Re: Double predestination
Robin
Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:31 AM
Re: Double predestination
Tom
Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:44 AM
Re: Double predestination
li0scc0
Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:24 PM
Re: Double predestination
gnarley
Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:10 AM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:35 AM
Re: Double predestination
J_Edwards
Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:04 AM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:20 AM
Re: Double predestination
J_Edwards
Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:10 PM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:31 PM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:58 PM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:23 PM
Re: Double predestination
J_Edwards
Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:09 PM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:59 PM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:06 PM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:24 PM
Re: Double predestination
doulos
Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:42 PM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:07 PM
Re: Double predestination
Peter
Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:31 PM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:36 PM
Re: Double predestination
Peter
Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:51 PM
Re: Double predestination
Wes
Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:11 AM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:52 AM
Re: Double predestination
J_Edwards
Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:42 PM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:01 PM
Re: Double predestination
J_Edwards
Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:51 PM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:34 AM
Re: Double predestination
J_Edwards
Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:41 AM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:51 AM
Re: Double predestination
J_Edwards
Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:56 AM
Re: Double predestination
Joe k
Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:02 PM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:51 AM
Re: Double predestination
Joe k
Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:57 AM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:07 AM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:58 AM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:19 AM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:57 AM
Re: Double predestination
Adopted
Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:01 AM
Re: Double predestination
doulos
Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:40 PM
Re: Double predestination
Adopted
Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:38 PM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:10 AM
Re: Double predestination
Adopted
Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:59 AM
Re: Double predestination
beloved57
Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:17 AM
Re: Double predestination
Pilgrim
Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:50 AM
Re: Double predestination
Adopted
Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:36 AM
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