Joe k said:

AS far as your understanding of Esau, I am attempting to understand. Are you saying For the 9 months in the womb is what equals "before being born?" You are seperating the beginning from the end sperry, God being eternal, starts with the end in mind, then fashions His pots according to His own purpose. You are also confusing acts of sin with reprobation. This cannot be done. May I ask what you understand reprobation to mean? The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write both phrases: Loved Jacob, HAted Esau. Now, if election to salvation was only in mind, he could have left out the hating of Esau.

Romans 9:10 specifies a specific time "when Rebecca also had conceived" that God hated Esau. This is understandable. All men since the fall are conceived in sin. It is also understandable that God loved Jacob. The rigtheousness of Christ was imputed to him by faith in the coming saviour. Do these verses really prove reprobation in the sense that God caused Jacob to be an object of hate? Could not God, at some time after his conception, call Esau into faith in Christ? Does the fact that he is hated at one specific point in time mean that he will always be hated?

Joe K continuesThen I will agree there could be room for a non active reprobating on Gods part. OF just creating out of the same lump those for salvation, and just "passing by" or "leaving the rest in their sins. BUt unless we take Jehus knife to the writ, it has to stay there. Each sperm egg creating is fitted for a purpose. I know of no potter that just makes a vessel, then decides what do do with it after he is done. No, they always have the end in mind. The clay is not put on the wheel, and with eyes closed, the potter just starts to mold it, then hours later looks and says "Hey I made an ashtray". No, While haveing the unformed lump, He knows what he is going to create before the first touch of his hand. All hinges on the fact that God purposed them not to be redeemed by Christ. They are not given to Christ. They are not enlightened savingly by the Spirit. They are not created "inferior" by nature, it is the same lump. Not one lump for elect, and another for reprobate. Paul states all man from the same blood I think somewhere in Acts. They are not created "more evil" or infused with some "frsh evil" (whatever that means) They are not created with some unreedemable sin nature. They are all equal as far as nature. But one is fitted for sal;vation, the other is fitted for destruction

Infralapsianism makes no sense to me. Obviously, God could not simply pass by. He must choose to pass by. Supralapsianism, while logical, does not agree with scripture regarding God's purpose toward those He damns.

All men inherit the curse of Adam. Even the elect are vessels of wrath until they are made vessels of honor by God. So, it is improper to speak of the elect as always being vessels of honor. Adam was made a vessel of honor by God and became a vessel of dishonor by Satan and himself. In none of this do I see an intention by God to make vessels of dishonor. We should look for a greater purpose here.