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#29666
Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
Needs to get a Life
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Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615 |
Speratus, I still have a hard time with Luthernism’s predestination. If you claim single predestination as opposed to double predestination then what do you do with Romans 11: I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, And bow thou down their back always. Here even Luther states, "that [God] Himself is the author of the reprobation of the others, just as He Himself drove Israel into the Babylonian exile in their time." Thus, at best Luther (and Lutherans) seem very confused over this issue! Here is Luther’s quote: I have kept for myself. They are called a “remnant” from the fact that they were left over, for God kept them for Himself. In this word we see a marvelous commendation for His grace and election. For God does not say: “They remained,” although this is true, to be sure, but this act of remaining was not the act of those who remained but of God who kept them, that it might be a matter not “of man’s will and exertion, but of God’s mercy” (Rom. 9:16). By the same expression indeed He indicates indirectly that He Himself is the author of the reprobation of the others, just as He Himself drove Israel into the Babylonian exile in their time. For the meaning of the expression “I have kept for Myself” is: “Although I myself drove out all of them, I kept for Myself seven thousand men.” He does not say: “When all were driven out, there remained, or when Nebuchadnezzar or the devil carried them all away, he left Me seven thousand,” but rather: “I myself kept them back, while I took the others away,” in order that it might be established firmly that “The potter has the right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use” (Rom. 9:21); again: “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy” (9:15).
Luther, Martin. Vol. 25, Luther's Works, Vol. 25 : Lectures on Romans. Edited by Pelikan, Jaroslav Jan, Hilton C. Oswald, and Helmut T. Lehmann. Luther's Works. Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1999, c1972.
Reformed and Always Reforming,
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Entire Thread
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Double predestination
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knoxandcalvin
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Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:07 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:40 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:43 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:59 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:21 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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J_Edwards
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Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:01 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:46 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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gotribe
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Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:30 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:28 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:46 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:57 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:08 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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J_Edwards
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Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:14 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:04 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:17 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:41 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:20 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Peter
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Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:41 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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J_Edwards
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Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:27 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Tom
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Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:50 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:38 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:48 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:36 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:39 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:36 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:07 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Tom
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:53 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Tom
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:37 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:24 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Tom
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:31 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:42 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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J_Edwards
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:02 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:14 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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J_Edwards
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:45 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:57 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:56 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:32 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:41 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:53 PM
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:03 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:00 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:18 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:50 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:16 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:04 AM
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Joe k
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:06 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Joe k
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:13 PM
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Re: Posting long articles here
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Pilgrim
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:21 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:43 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Joe k
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:11 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:48 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:23 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:21 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:30 AM
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Double predestination and Romans 11
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J_Edwards
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Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:52 PM
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Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:54 AM
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Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
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J_Edwards
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Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:59 AM
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Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:42 AM
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Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
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J_Edwards
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Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:42 PM
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Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:19 PM
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Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
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J_Edwards
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Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:39 AM
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Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
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Anonymous
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Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:20 AM
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Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
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J_Edwards
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Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:24 PM
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Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
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Joe k
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Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:42 PM
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Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
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Anonymous
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Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:35 AM
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Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
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Tom
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Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:46 AM
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Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
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Anonymous
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Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:45 AM
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Re: Double predestination and Romans 11
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Tom
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Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:43 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Joe k
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:17 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:37 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Joe k
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Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:56 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:52 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Wes
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Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:37 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Joe k
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Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:29 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:50 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:18 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Joe k
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Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:42 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:22 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:21 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:37 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:32 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Joe k
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:45 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:58 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Joe k
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:28 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:22 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Joe k
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:38 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Tom
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:10 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:35 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Peter
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:34 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:35 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:13 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:54 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Peter
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:28 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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li0scc0
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:01 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Joe k
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:22 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Peter
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Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:03 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:58 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Peter
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Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:33 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:14 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Peter
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Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:53 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:36 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Peter
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Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:21 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:08 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Peter
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:24 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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William
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:05 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:07 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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J_Edwards
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:16 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Anonymous
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:04 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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J_Edwards
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:47 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:28 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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William
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Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:29 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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William
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:14 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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William
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Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:23 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:57 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:25 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:50 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:18 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Wes
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Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:04 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:12 AM
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Wes
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Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:26 PM
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beloved57
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Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:18 PM
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J_Edwards
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Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:10 AM
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beloved57
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Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:28 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:24 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:10 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Adopted
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Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:50 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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J_Edwards
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Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:58 PM
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Privation of the Good
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J_Edwards
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Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:58 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Robin
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Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:31 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Tom
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Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:44 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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li0scc0
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Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:24 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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gnarley
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Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:10 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:35 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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J_Edwards
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Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:04 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:20 AM
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J_Edwards
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Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:10 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:31 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:58 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:23 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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J_Edwards
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Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:09 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:59 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:06 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:24 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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doulos
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Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:42 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:07 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Peter
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Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:31 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:36 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Peter
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Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:51 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Wes
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Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:11 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:52 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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J_Edwards
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Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:42 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:01 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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J_Edwards
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Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:51 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:34 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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J_Edwards
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Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:41 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:51 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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J_Edwards
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Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:56 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Joe k
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Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:02 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:51 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Joe k
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Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:57 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:07 AM
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:58 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:19 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:57 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Adopted
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Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:01 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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doulos
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Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:40 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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Adopted
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Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:38 PM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:10 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Adopted
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Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:59 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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beloved57
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Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:17 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:50 AM
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Re: Double predestination
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Adopted
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Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:36 AM
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