The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine

Brother Josht:<br>You Stated :<br><hr width="85%"><br>Already agreed. I have made it clear that I believe this more than once, that God's election according to His foreknowledge precedes our faith. I also agree that election is according to God's purpose and plan, but I believe that God's plan is based on what He foresees in people's hearts.<br><br><hr width="85%"><br>ONCE AGAIN…big difference between saying according to ‘foreknowledge’ and “what He foresees in people’s hearts.” In such verses, it states that God "foreknows" PEOPLE not ACTIONS ( Romans 8:29). BIG DIFFERENCE. Check the grammar. God is foreknowing a personal object. God foreknows (foreloves) his Elect (ver34) as free sovereign choice. I have given you so many scriptures that prove this very fact. Leads me to wonder what you would make of such a passage as 1Peter 1:20. [color:red]The point of Romans 9 is that GOD CHOOSES from the "SAME LUMP" of clay</font color=red>. God is the one that makes one ‘clay’ from differ from another through election and that He purposed within himself. It is his free choice. He decided between Jacob and Esau, without regard to anything they DID. God foresees the good in the people's heart because He caused it to be there (see Old Testament prophesies in Eze, Jer). Also, Paul would not have stated the answers to the objections of election that He did ROMANS in 9:6-24 if He was teaching your Arminian view of election. Matter of fact, WHO would OBJECT to such a view???? Eph 1:4 states that God CHOSE us from the foundation of the world. THE GREEK of the word CHOOSE here is in the middle voice; IT WAS GOD’s OWN DECISION IN HIMSELF. It is interesting that you stated that it his according to His purpose and plan and then you write the BUT. That’s problem within Arminian theology; in one sentence they start with grace, and then comes the BUT, and end up nullifying grace in the same sentence. Rather, The verse of Eph 1:11 ends as such, “ HAVING BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE WHO WORKS ALL THINGS [note all things] after the COUNSEL of HIS WILL, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ should BE TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY. The very fact that God chooses one because He foresaw how one person would react leaves room for that person to boast and share in the glory. Scripture will not support the statement that it is “based on what He foresees in people’s hearts” . [color:red] <br> Just as God exercised freedom in loving & choosing national Israel ( Deut 10:14-15, Deut 7:6-8, Amos 3:1-2), so does He with believers (Romans 9:6-24, 1 Cor 1:26-31, Eph., etc). IT IS because of GOD that we are in Christ (1Cor 1:30), and this because He chose us to put in Christ . What GOD foresaw was what GOD would DO (Romans 9)!!!!!!!!!!</font color=red> Clearly in the new birth, it is stated the God the holy spirit has the freedom to regenerate whom He will (1 John 3: 6-8). Romans 8:30 states, “whom HE CALLED, these He also JUSTIFIED”. The calling is effectual. This call leads to faith, which in turn results in Justification (Romans 5:1). Before the Call, God Had foreknown (foreloved) and Predestined them from all eternity. That is WHY they receive the effectual Call, which EFFECTS faith and results in Justification, that will eventually lead to ultimate Glorification (including conformity to the image of Christ as purposed (v 28). Your idea of foreseen faith makes no sense of the passage of Romans 8:28-38. [color:red]I end with this summary, that those verses on God’s foreknowing or foreknowledge state that the object of the divine foreknowledge is not the actions of certain people but the people themselves. In this sense it can only mean, as C.E.B Cranfield’s commentary on Romans notes, “that special taking knowledge of a person which is God’s electing grace. . .” Put away your tradition and listen to the text</font color=red>. <br><br><br>I asked: “You said there are conditions to God’s Election. WHERE IN THE SCRIPTURE?”<br><br><hr width="85%"><br>You responded:<br><br>Proverbs 3:34, James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5-6 - Humility<br>Hebrews 3:7-8, Hebrews 3:15, Hebrews 4:7 - Hearing His voice and not hardening your heart<br>Matthew 18:3-4, Mark 10:15, Luke 18:17 - Humble yourself and become like a little child<br>Romans 11:20-23 - Not remaining in unbelief (note in 11:20 that they were broken off because of unbelief, not unbelieving because they were broken off)<br><br><hr width="85%"><br><br>You confuse two things Election and salvation. Election leads to salvation trough the means of sanctification and faith. They are not the same things. Also, election is used in several ways in the bible; some to service and in other contexts to salvation. 2 Thes 2:13-15 : But we should always give thanks to God for you [why?] ..because God has CHOSEN [election] you from the beginning FOR [note the distinction] SALVATION through [means] SANCTIFICATION by the Spirit and FAITH in the truth. And it was FOR THIS that He called you through our Gospel. Once again you have not proven that ELECTION (unto salvation) itself is based on conditions, from the scriptures you have quoted. Indeed, God has also chosen the means by which He will save His elect. You also confuse the election of national Israel as a people and the election to salvation within that nation. See below. It is clear from Romans 8:28-38, that NOTHING CREATED can separate God’s Elect (verse34) from HIS LOVE in Christ. Is there anything ‘not created ‘that can separate the The Elect from Christ???<br><br>Again, I again submit you do not know the context of the book of Romans. For “they are not all Israel[national elect] who are descended from Israel[spiritual elect] (Roman 9:6). Why?? Because “The children of the promise are regarded as descendants (Rom 9:8)”, and “ For though the TWINS were not yet born, and HAD NOT done ANYTHING good or bad, [color:red] in order that GOD’s purpose according to HIS CHOICE might stand, not because of works, but because of HIM who calls( NASB Rom 9:11)</font color=red>, “So then it DOES NOT DEPEND on the MAN WHO WILLs or THE MAN WHO RUNs, BUT ON GOD who has mercy (16), “So then HE has mercy on whom HE DESIRES, and HE hardens whom HE DESIRES (18), “it is the REMANT that will SAVED (27)”, “I say then that God has not reject His people, has HE? May it never be! For I am too am an Israelite, a DESCEDANT of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin, GOD HAS NOT rejected His people, WHOM HE FOREKNEW [foreloved, note that God has not rejected those whom he chose to place a special love upon] …I HAVE KEPT FOR MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN who have not bowed the knee to Baal… [color:red]A REMANT ACCORDING to GOD’s gracious CHOICE (Romans 11:1-5)</font color=red>… God’s has always been choosing those to salvation even within the election of national Israel. The whole point of the previous verses is that Who God has chosen for salvation is conditioned in himself. He preservers those He has chosen. God’s word, purpose and decrees will stand and not fail (Romans 9:5, Isaiah 55: 11, Dan 4:35, Prov 16:9, Prov 19:21). <br><br>Praise to The glory of God alone!<br><br>Brother,<br>Carlos