Dear Prestor John,<br><br>IRT:<br>"Your condition is that there must be response before they can be sheep. I say that they Bible doesn't state that just that they are sheep and they hear Christ's call. Their status as sheep (ie: elect even if unregenerate) is first and foremost. That they respond is secondary. They were first sheep, they belong to Christ because the Father gave them to Him. Then they respond not the other way around."<br><br>Your position is simply based on a Calvinist presupposition. You are effectively begging the question, for you simply assume that your belief on being one of Christ's sheep is correct because you accept Calvinism. The scripture does not say that one is one of Christ's sheep before he or she is saved, you simply read that into the passage with no supporting evidence.<br><br>I wrote:<br>"If you think Christ's sheep include people that are yet to be saved, then it would be logical to conclude that no one who has ever been in a cult could ever be saved, for they have heeded the voice of another, and therefore cannot be of Christ's sheep."<br><br>Then you wrote:<br>"So now God is impotent to save? Well we like sheep all went our own way remember that verse?? All of us before the effective call of the Gospel, the voice of Christ, heeded another voice, our own, as well as others. But when Christ called us out we came because we are His, and no other. Your logic, if it can be termed that, is in fact illogical."<br><br>So then your own logic turns against you, for if what you said is true (All of us before the effective call of the Gospel, the voice of Christ, heeded another voice, our own...), then it proves my point, because Christ's sheep do not follow another's voice. I did not say that Christ was impotent to save, that is simply the end result of your logic when compared to scripture.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh<br>