Dear Josht

IN a previous post, I brought up verses John 8: 46 and John 1:12 -13 to indicate that they are clear in showing who are those who will hear and believe and those who wont.

JoshT reponded with the following:
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It is very clear. The phrase 'because you are not of God' indicates that God did not choose to give His grace to these individuals because He knew that they would harden their hearts against the truth and against His grace.



Carlos Responds: Talk about classic “eisegesis”. Please prove me from the text where it says God witheld His mercy and grace to them ‘because HE KNEW that that they would harden their hearts agains the truth and against His grace”. Yes, the passage speaks of God had not chosen them. They were not his; as John 10:26 has the similar statement that “but you do not believe because you are not my sheep”. Yes, God never opened their hearts and their ears so that they would accept the gospel. But I am interested to find where in the text it says that God did withold his grace from these pharisees ‘because He knew’ that they would hardern their hearts againt the truth and his grace. For infact, all men in their natural state, behave like the pharisees in this contex; that is they reject the truth. Onfly after God has given ears to hears, can any one accept the truth. The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both” (Pr. 20:12).


JoshT Continued with the following:

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The phrase 'WHO WERE BORN, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but OF GOD' makes it clear that it is not man who has sought God, but God who has sought man and chosen certain of them to be saved (based on His foreknowledge). No problems from either passage.



Carlos writes: Do you always read into the scriptures with your “God-forsees glasses”?[Linked Image] That seems to be your number 1 hermeneutic presupposotion. The passage[john 1:12-13] means what it says. God regenerates , gives spritiual birth to the natural man. As Eph 2 says, God “made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions.” This occurs without any doing on the part of the un-regenerate. As that passage state, “not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man. Not even the arminians’s beloved “free-will”. God regenerates irrespective to any of those things. James 1:18 ...”Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth..” . God ‘monergisticly’ imparts spiritual life( i.e man is passive and God is the only one active). Just as a baby had no part in his beginnings of his/her birth, so it is with the regenerate. The idea of resurrection to life also supports this. "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life... Therefore have I told you that no man can come to me, unless it be given to him by my Father." ( John 6:63,65) . 1 John 3:8 “The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit “. God is not only seeking man, He is regenerating them. That’s the meaning of the passage. Why Regeneration? Because the un-regenerated does not accept the things of God, and they are foolishness to him, as 1 coritians 2:12-14 demonstrate. His nature is bent agaisnt God( romans 1). The total depravity of man runs throughtout scripture. So how can one who is dead in their sins, who walks according to his lust and nature chose God? One word: The new birth. Thus, God gives life to people who are dead in the sins so then they can accept things of God and believe in Him. As John 1 passage says, Those who believe, “Who were born... of God”. The birth preceded the belief. "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God ( 1 john 5:1)" . The greek tenses of the verbs make point very clear: As John Piper states “Every one who goes on believing [present particle denoting a continuous action] that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God [perfect, completed action with abiding effects].

God chose to give birth to them because of HIS GRACE...HIs Kind intention..Because It pleased him to do so.. not because of any forseen merit,etc or anthying seen in any man. As ephe 2:4 states, But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses,”. The Bible says “16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Ofourse, the is no problem after you have twisted to the scripture to your liking. Anyone can do that. The problem is seen when the text is exegesized properly.


Originally I wrote

"A. God regenerates the person (" born of God") [john 3]. Remember, natural man is 'DEAD', spiritually. That is why they are regenerated; it gives spritual life, gives them a ' heart of flesh'. Thus:

B) they 'hear' & 'believe' and love the word of God and accept Christ as Lord and Savior."

JoshT reponded with the following:

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Men are not born of God or regenerated before they are saved-- there is no Biblical indication of this. God sheds His grace upon them, enabling them to humble themselves, hear Him, repent, and believe the truth. The 'heart of flesh' is given by God to those who are born again. Note in Ezekiel 11, that God will give Israel this after they show the fruits of repentance, not before.



Carlos Writes: I have already demonstrated above that faith is fruit of the being born again(.i.e regeneration) and not the cause of it. The heart of flesh is given to those who initially have a heart of stone. “I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh” as the ezekial verse states . Are you imlying that those with a ‘heart of stone’ can believe and humble themselves??? I disagree with your intepretation of ezek 11. The point of that passage is that Since God will give them a undivided heart or a heart of flesh , in turn they will serve Him and not idols and keep his commandments, humble themselves, etc. Is it similar to Deut 30:5-7:
“He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. “7

Notice it is God who is circumcising their hearts so that they will worhsip him.Wehn people repent and turn to Christ and serve Him it is because of God has wrought that work in them. They willingly turn to embrace the Savior since their hatred of God has been transformed to a love for Him.‘Repentance Unto life’ is a Gift from God.
“They glorified God, saying, ‘Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life’” (Acts 11:18).



I had written

"JoshT that is why in John 3 it is stated that unless one is born again, He "CANNOT SEE" the kingdom of God. Natural man is 'BLIND'."

JoshT reponded with:

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The kingdom of God in John 3 refers to the eternal kingdom. In other words, one cannot see God's eternal kingdom unless he is saved. Natural man is blind, until God gives him grace enabling him to see.



I disagree. One can not see..that is He/She cannot perceive nor comprehend nor know the kingdom of God UNLESS is given spiriutal life by GOD, unless He is made a new creature. That passage is similar to 1 Cor 2:14: “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”. Being born again refers to the new birth( i.e regeneration) and not being saved. They are two dinsctict things. The new birth will lead to being saved. Although the two are necesserarily linked, they are separate things , just like sanctification and justification. That grace by which GOD is “enabling him[natural man] to see” is called REGENERATION. That is what the passages is reffering to. Conlusion: Natural man sees ONLY after He has been MADE ALIVE.He has to be born of the spirit before He can see, hear, know, and welcome the things of the the Spiirt, the things of God. “..Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13For He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves ( col :12-13). Although the kingdom of God is spoken in various ways throughout the scripture, I believe john here is emphasizing entrace into the kingdom of God NOW according to the context. I would like to know you definition “Enabling”. I doubt very much you would describe it as I would, and I contend, as the bible does.
If you don’t agree I would like you to explain to me how then can it be possible for the unregenerate, who is dead in sin, enslaved to his sins, captive by satan, walks according the world, at enmity with God, hates the light, mocks the Gospel of Christ Crucified, can excercise exercise faith except He/She be first be made a new creature???


"Long my imprisoned spirit lay, Fast bound in sin and nature's night; Thine eye diffused a quickening ray; I woke: The dungeon flamed with light! My chains fell off, my heart was free, I rose, went forth, and followed Thee" --

Carlos


"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)