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#977
Tue Apr 01, 2003 10:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,386 Likes: 54
Head Honcho
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Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,386 Likes: 54 |
In reply to: [color:"blue"]If my line of reasoning is what has failed, then why, as I pointed out elsewhere, does Romans 11 obviously support what I say?
You never have made a case from Romans 11 to justify your view. A right consideration of CONTEXT is essential if one is to rightly understand the Scriptures. Let's look at a few passages from Romans 11: Romans 11:1-6 (ASV) "I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [color:red]But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. Paul first makes the point that although the vast majority of God's covenant people, the Jews have been cut off and stand as enemies against God, the LORD has kept a "remnant" for Himself who He foreknew i.e., (those whom He had foreloved and determined to save by the election of grace). That which made the believing Jew differ from the unbelieving Jew was God's electing grace and NOT anything concerning them individually. For to the one, grace was given which upheld them while the remainder were not given grace, according to God's election. This election, Paul had already established was UNconditional. (cf. Rom 9:11ff). Romans 11:19-21 (ASV) Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; by their [color:red]unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee. Here, Paul addresses the Gentiles at Rome and admonishes them to not be haughty nor presumptuous about their alleged standing before God. There were those within the covenant community of Israel who presumed to be right with God due to their national heritage and tradition. They thought that because they were Jews, God was their portion while all others were under God's wrath and judgment. But surely the biblical record shows that the vast majority of Jews fell under God's righteous anger and were rejected for their sins and unbelief. Neither nationality, nor ecclesiastical affiliation has any influence upon one's salvation as Paul states elsewhere: Romans 9:6-8 (ASV) "But [it is] not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: neither, because they are Abraham's seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed." In Romans 11, Paul is simply iterating what he had already established before and further establishes that it is God's sovereign right and mercy which saves and nothing else. But I would have you notice that Paul says that the Jews were broken off due to their unbelief; i.e., they never believed but were self-deceived with their Jewishness in thinking that all was right with their soul. He is making the point that the Gentiles were standing by their faith which is of grace, a gift of God and therefore there is no room for boasting over those Jews who had been cut off. Pride always precedes the fall, and such pride is inconsistent with grace. Thus, the admonition is to beware of your prideful attitude for it could indicate that you are in the same precarious position as those who were cut off; without true faith and thus under God's condemnation and possible rejection. There is nothing in Romans 11 that teaches that a true believer can be cut off for not persevering in the faith. But to the contrary, the text shows that there is a remnant who has been saved infallibly by grace and who has persevered in that faith while others who were guilty of presuming their salvation were ultimately lost. No one is denying the "conditionality" of salvation, i.e., that man is responsible to believe. God doesn't believe for anyone. Faith is given by grace (Eph 2:8 , 9). And true faith always seeks that which it is designed for; Christ. BOTH man's responsibility and God's sovereignty are upheld in the doctrines of grace. In His Sovereign Grace,
simul iustus et peccator
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Entire Thread
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gives grace to the humble
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 09, 2002 12:30 AM
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Re: gives grace to the humble
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lazarus
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 12:13 AM
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Re: gives grace to the humble
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Anonymous
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Mon Mar 31, 2003 2:51 PM
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Re: gives grace to the humble
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Pilgrim
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Mon Mar 31, 2003 4:28 PM
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The correct answer is:
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Anonymous
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Mon Mar 31, 2003 4:57 PM
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Re: The correct answer is:
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li0scc0
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Mon Mar 31, 2003 5:03 PM
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Re: The correct answer is:
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Anonymous
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Tue Apr 01, 2003 11:35 PM
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Re: The correct answer is:
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Pilgrim
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Wed Apr 02, 2003 1:09 AM
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Re: The correct answer is:
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Pilgrim
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Mon Mar 31, 2003 6:46 PM
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Re: The correct answer is:
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Anonymous
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Tue Apr 01, 2003 11:16 PM
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Re: The correct answer is:
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Pilgrim
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Wed Apr 02, 2003 2:03 AM
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Not good, humble
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:46 PM
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Re: Not good, humble
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 3:13 PM
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Re: Not good, humble
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carlos
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 3:31 PM
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Re: Not good, humble
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lazarus
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 3:47 PM
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Re: Not good, humble
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Anonymous
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:02 AM
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Grace, not regeneration
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Anonymous
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 5:53 AM
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Regeneration precedes faith
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carlos
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Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:04 PM
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Re: Regeneration precedes faith
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Anonymous
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Tue Apr 01, 2003 10:56 PM
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Re: Regeneration precedes faith
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carlos
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Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:05 PM
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Re: Regeneration precedes faith
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Anonymous
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Fri Apr 04, 2003 12:04 PM
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Re: Grace, not regeneration
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carlos
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Tue Apr 01, 2003 4:38 PM
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Re: Not good, humble
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Anonymous
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 5:48 AM
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Re: Not good, humble
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Ehud
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:49 PM
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Good things vs. good people
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Anonymous
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 5:45 AM
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Re: Good things vs. good people
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Ehud
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 2:05 PM
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Grace
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Anonymous
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Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:50 PM
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Re: Grace
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Pilgrim
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Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:13 PM
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Re: Grace
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Anonymous
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Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:33 PM
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Re: Grace
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lazarus
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Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:53 PM
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Re: Grace
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Anonymous
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Mon Mar 31, 2003 2:47 PM
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Re: Grace
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Pilgrim
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Tue Aug 27, 2002 7:43 PM
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Double talk
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Anonymous
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Mon Mar 31, 2003 2:25 PM
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Re: Double talk
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Pilgrim
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Mon Mar 31, 2003 5:11 PM
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**Parable Poem of the Boasting Fool**
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Anonymous
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Mon Mar 31, 2003 2:45 PM
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Re: **Parable Poem of the Boasting Fool**
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Anonymous
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Tue Apr 01, 2003 4:20 AM
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Re: Grace
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GottseiEhre
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Wed Aug 28, 2002 2:47 AM
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Re: Grace
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Anonymous
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Fri Mar 28, 2003 2:53 PM
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Re: Grace
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li0scc0
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Fri Mar 28, 2003 3:01 PM
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Re: Grace
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Anonymous
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Mon Mar 31, 2003 2:01 PM
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Re: Grace
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Anonymous
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Wed Aug 28, 2002 9:55 PM
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Re: Grace
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Anonymous
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Fri Mar 28, 2003 2:50 PM
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Re: Grace
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Ehud
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Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:31 PM
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Re: Grace
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Anonymous
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Tue Oct 01, 2002 6:12 PM
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Re: Grace
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Anonymous
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Tue Oct 01, 2002 6:08 PM
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Re: Grace
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Anonymous
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Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:27 PM
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Differing from another
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Anonymous
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Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:41 PM
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Re: Differing from another
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Anonymous
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Wed Aug 28, 2002 12:10 PM
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Re: Differing from another
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Anonymous
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Tue Oct 01, 2002 6:02 PM
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