The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum gives grace to the humble

Dear Brother JoshT,

In our discussion of John 8, I had challenged you to demonstrate me from the Text where it stated that God specifically withheld his grace form the Pharisees because he “he knew in advance that that they would reject him”.

You responded with:

In reply to:

---

[color:"blue"]
First of all, concerning the Pharisees. The scripture makes it plain that they rejected God of their own accord,
Luke 7:30 says,
"But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. "
So it was not hard to derive that God foreknew their rejection and did not extend His grace to them, not because He simply hated them.

---

Brother JoshT, That’s not an answer to my question. Please prove me from the text again where it says that God withheld his grace from them because He knew in advance that they would reject him[I have not used the word ‘foreknew’ for you are not using it biblically, as been demonstrated repeatedly by Pilgrim]. Not only that, but I did not deny that The Pharisees did indeed reject god as their choice. In fact, I said that all men in the natural state reject God (i.e. 1 cor 2:14,Roms 8:6-7,Eph 2:1-3, Romans 1:18-3:20,and many other passages that have been quoted to you). My argument is that if God looked down the corridor of time[using your position] He would see all men rejecting him. Quoting Luke 7:30 does not answer my question. What you said is Eisogesis. Prove otherwise. How did you get from John 8 and Luke 7:30 that “God foreknew their rejection and did not extend His grace to them”? I have yet to see you do any kind of EXEGESIS. With that kind of eisogesis I can basically prove just about anything from the scriptures. The fact of the matter is ROMANS 9 says that God Calls because of His own Pleasure not with regard to ANYTHING Jacob and Esau did.

In reply to:

---

[color:"blue"]Secondly, you contend that one is "born again" so that they can be saved, and cite several references. But note what 1 John 3:9 says that one who has been born of God cannot sin. Now I agree that this is speaking of living in wilful sin, but hear me out: How can a person (regardless of how 'spiritually alive' they are) live a holy life before God if they are not yet saved?

---

You misunderstand me. I’m sorry if I was not clear. But I said that those are born gain, or literally “from Above” sovereignly by the Holy Spirit ( i.e. John 3), will necessarily believe and thus be saved. I said that they are not separated, but two distinct things. I treat Regeneration(Mongergistic work of God alone) and Conversion(repentance, belief by the regenerate) as two distinct things, but the former effectually and without fail leads to the latter. As proven by Romans 8:30:” these whom He called, He also justified”. Regeneration gives the Dead elect sinner Spiritual Life and will effectually cause him/her to come to Christ( i.e. John 6:37,44,65,etc). They will excercise faith in Christ,and thus be justified and also bear other fruits. Please let me know if I misunderstood your question. In addition, I see no response to my ‘cited references.’

In reply to:

---

[color:"blue"]
The third thing you questioned me on was how can those that are spiritually dead obey God. So do I believe that one who has a 'heart of stone' and a carnal mind can respond to the Lord's call? Absolutely. It's quite simple really, the power of God's grace. John 1 says that Christ is the light of men, for His holy light can even enlighten the deadest men and let them see the truth.
John 5:25 says,
"Verily, verily, I say to unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

---

first, what do you mean by “the deadest men”? Yes, it is the Power of God, but the POWER of GOD ALONE. To be “DEAD” means to be UNRESPONSIVE to spiritual Things until, as you said, they “hear when Christ Calls them”. Brother Josht T, this is what I have been saying : That Christ Effectually Calls the Elect. The Elect do in fact hear when called. His Sheep Respond to his voice(i.e. John 10). Those who are not his sheep do not. John 5:25 does not help you, It only strengthens our case . Jesus is talking about 2 RESURRECTIONS in this context. The one at the End of the AGE and the one that happens to Elect men/women Now. It demonstrates an EFFECTUAL call. Note that They ”SHALL hear”.. and those that Hear WILL come to life. It’s certain to happen.

In reply to:

---

[color:"blue"]
So even though men are spiritually dead, they can still hear when Christ calls them. Should I think it so strange that one who can call the physically dead to life should also be able to do so with the spiritually dead?

---

However, it is the Elect that will hear (which was my original statement in this thread). God does indeed RAISE the spiritual dead to Life (i.e. Eph 2:1-10) through the EFFECTUALL Calling that is spoken in this text[john 5] . Those whom He called according to his purpose...Whom He foreknew(elected, foreloved).. He predestined...These He called...these He justified...These He glorified...(Romans 8:22-30 etc.). Though you say the statements above, you in fact deny it with your other statements. The dead Hear as result of the internall calling of God as in john 5:25, Acts 16:14-15.

In reply to:

---

[color:"blue"]
But as I pointed out with the Pharisees, God's call can be resisted by men. Yes, it is God who opens their hearts and ears, this I do not deny, but man can harden and close them again (see Hebrews 3:7).
"But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears that they should not hear. Yea, they made their hearts as adamant stone..." (Zechariah 7:11-12)

---

I sound like a broken record, but God’s effectual call never fails(“All that the Father Gives me, WILL Come to me John 6:37.).I figure if say enough times it will eventually sink into your mind. I am not denying that people resist God’s grace(see the parable of the soil). The Gospel Call goes out to many. However only the elect respond. I am saying that All those HE CALLED[effectually]...THESE HE JUSTIFED[Romans 8:30]...You have yet to refute this passage . Note Hebrews 3 is not the same as in John 5:25. The Language here says “IF YOU WILL hear His voice “. This does not give you the latitude to come with conclusion that men can harden their after hearts after being effectually called . There is no effectual calling in this context. Please prove it you think it does. And what are you trying to prove with Zecha 7:11-12 especially in light of it’s context?? I think you fail to disntiguish between the gospel call,which is external, and the effectual call, the internal work of God on the elect.

In reply to:

---

[color:"blue"]
So yes, I do believe that repentance to life is a gift from God, and that salvation is not dependent on our will or effort, but God's mercy. This does not negate the fact that God chooses to save only those that answer His call, even though they be dead.

---

This seems like doubletalk to me. Thus, I go back to my original question, Who are those will Hear His CALL? That is what you are missing : the EFFECTUAL call is what ‘Quickens’, ’Resurrects’, ‘Makes Alive’, ‘opens the heart’ of the Elect sinner and thus draw him/her to Believe in Christ (John 6:37-45). The sinner “CANNOT” produce any fruit, which includes faith, unless his nature is changed; His old nature needs more than just an aid; thus my argument that regeneration/calling precedes faith(i.e. Romans 8:30). This happens to the ELECT only.

The difference comes down to this. You believe, as do Roman Catholics, the unbiblical notion of Synergism and I believe in the biblical teaching of Monergism.


In Christ,
Carlos