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#10573 Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:27 PM
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Journeyman
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Hey Carol<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" />

I don't mind a little butting in. Thats pretty much what I did myself<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I see that some of the others have already replied to what you asked me, and to be honest, they probably said it a heap better than I could. If not, and if you want to ask me something specific, I'll try to come up with an answer--and if I don't have an answer.....well, my wife says that I never let a little thing like "lack of knowledge" prevent me from offering an opinion.<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Stucco

Saved_n_kept #10574 Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:20 AM
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Saved_n_kept said:
Mr. Potts,
In order that those of us who agree with Pilgrim might be clear what you meant when you wrote:
Quote
I believe there IS one truth, there IS one true Gospel, and any other is a false gospel. What I have set forth in this thread is the truth. Your Antinomian mixture of law and grace is another gospel. Whatever names and writers you can run to for support in your views won't help one bit to make them true. Error is error, whoever teaches it.
Does this mean that you would see the following as applying to us?
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Why do you folk keep seeking to raise the temperature of this discussion? Why do you keep seeking out statements which I make that you can leap on and claim “Aha! That’s what he thinks! Aha!”, as if they are so shocking, so damning?

The fact is that both sides hold to what they believe is the truth very strongly, and both believe the other to hold error. What I have said about your ‘gospel’ is no stronger than what has been said about mine. As Wes and others have said:-

Quote
“As far as your Antinomian views are concerned the Bible condemns it. The apostles condemn it. Jesus Christ condemns it. Antinomianism is a heresy that must be rejected.

“Antinomian bias strikes at the nature of the gospel. It says, in effect, let us continue in sin.

Thus, Ian, what you are advocating, lawlessness, is nothing other than sin, for the two are made equivalent here by the Apostle John.

Now, if what I teach is as you claim ‘Antinomianism’ and is a heresy, then what of my gospel? Is it THE Gospel, but with a heresy in it? Or is it another gospel? Am I a brother, or should I be accursed?

If I advocate ‘lawlessness’ which is ‘nothing other than sin’ am I preaching a false gospel?

You decide.

If I am not, but simply preach the gospel, but with an error, then I can say the same about you. You preach the gospel (justification by faith alone) but with an error on sanctification.

But if you believe that my error is actually heresy and that my gospel is another gospel, a false gospel, then I ask you the same question:

Does this mean that you would see the following as applying to me?

“As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:9

Indeed if I preach heresy am I a heretic? Do you apply the following to me?

“A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.”
Titus 3:10-11

I implore you, by the grace of God, stop acting with self-righteous indignation, as though you and yours have not said equally strong words about my position. If you believe me to be in error then deal with the subject and try to answer the scriptural passages I have given in defence of what I believe, and declare to be the truth, the Gospel of Christ.

Much better to give me answers to what I have said about such passages as Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Galatians 5, 2 Corinthians 3, which clearly teach that the GOSPEL is the believer’s rule of life, not the LAW, than to waste time trying to trap me in my words, much as the Pharisees sought to do with Christ. You share the same legal spirit I fear.

Finally I ask you - have I come here cursing you, damning you, rejecting you? I have not. I have come here preaching the Gospel of Christ unto you, amidst much opposition, out of loving concern to shine light upon God's word, that you might know the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free. I have not left you alone in your error, but have sought to bring the truth to you. I may bring strong medicine at times, which is unpleasant to your taste, but I truly believe that should the Spirit of God apply these truths to your hearts then one day you will thank God for bringing this word unto your ears and into your understanding.

In Grace,
Ian Potts

Stucco #10575 Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:27 AM
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Stucco said:
Paul who speaks so often of justification by faith alone, completely apart from the works of the law, always maintains that the Gospel doesn't nullify the law but upholds it!

When Paul say's that the unGodly man cannot subject himself to the law of God (Rom. 8:7)--what are we to infer about the Godly man? Christ has redeemed us, to enable us to obey the moral requirements of the law. That moral law of God which we are to obey, is revealed in the Scriptures, especially (but not exclusively) in the Decalogue.

In Romans 13, Paul speaks on ethics. Then in verses 9-10, he quotes most of the second half of the ten commandments. Doesn't his appeal to the Decalogue as that which the law of love fulfills demonstrate the abiding relevance of the law? Doesn't his appeal to the love obligation also intertwine his standard for Christian ethics with that of Jesus, who gave His summarization of the ten commandments also as "Love your neighbor as yourself." Clearly, according to Scriptures, the Decalogue is to be the ethical norm for the Christian's covenant way of life.

Mr. Potts, the statements you have made throughout this thread indicate that you have a flawed concept of sanctification. The only way that your view can be consistent, is to take Paul's teachings and hold them in direct contradiction to themselves. You have placed the flow and continuity of the Bible as a whole on a dispensationalist chopping block and butchered it to pieces. Love finds its parameters within the law of God. Your view leaves the Christian with nothing more to look to as a guide along his pilgrimage to glory, than vague, undefined "feelings." If one is truly in Christ, then he wil truly appreciate the precepts God has provided for him in His Holy Scriptures, so that he can live out his life to the glory of Christ, his Redeemer and King.

Stucco,

With respect Sir, you are wrong, being confused in your understanding of scripture. It is not I that takes “Paul's teachings and hold(s) them in direct contradiction to themselves” but yourself.

How do you do that? By doing something along the following lines. You read this:-

Quote
“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”
Romans 6:14-15

“Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
Romans 7:4-6

And then you go on to read this:-

Quote
“Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.”
Romans 7:12-13

“If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good”
Romans 7:16

“For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”
Romans 7:22-25

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”
Romans 8:7

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”
Romans 13:8-10

And you reach the false conclusion that although Paul says we are not under law, that we are dead to it, and that we are delivered from it, that actually he can’t really mean that in the way it sounds because of what he says about the law later on! So in effect you make those earlier statements of little worth. You “qualify” them in whatever way is necessary in order to ensure, that practically, as a rule of life, the believer is, contrary to what Paul teaches, actually still under the law, still alive to it, still in bondage to it.

But Paul’s later comments IN NO WAY contradict his earlier statements and are in no way an insistence that the believer is under law. He isn’t, he is under grace.

What Paul is showing is HOW the love which is given by grace in the Gospel fulfils the law’s demands. Not that the believer is under the law, bound by the law, or ruled by the law, but that being under grace, living by faith, led by the Spirit, the believer does not “sin that grace may abound” but actually walks in ways of righteousness which fulfil all the law’s demands. Not by law, but by grace. Not under law, but under grace. Not by the letter, but by the Spirit. Not in bondage, but in liberty. Not by the work of the flesh, but by the work of the Spirit of God within us, by the outworking of that fruit of the Spirit as we walk, by faith, looking unto Jesus.

The Gospel produces righteous conduct in the believer, fulfilling the law’s demands, but not by being under the law, or ruled by the law. And that is what you can’t understand isn’t it? “How!?”, you ask, “It’s all too vague, too mystical, all about feelings…”.

You say the following:

“Love finds its parameters within the law of God.”
“Your view leaves the Christian with nothing more to look to as a guide along his pilgrimage to glory, than vague, undefined "feelings." “

No Sir. Allow me to explain.

The Spirit of God guides us using the whole word of God, not just the “moral law”. The just shall live by faith. Faith worketh by love. And love finds its parameters in THE Gospel, not simply the law, as the Gospel reveals the righteousness of God in its fullest extent, in Christ, and the Gospel fulfils all the law’s requirements. Faith is centred upon Christ, love is set upon Him, in loving response to the love which He first showed us, in that while we were yet sinners He died for us. And such love, such fruit of the Spirit flows forth not merely towards God, but towards our brethren also.

The Spirit inspired the whole word of God Stucco. And the Spirit ‘leads’ us by using the whole word of God. Our “rule of life” is not simply the “moral law”. It is to live by faith, walk in the Spirit, as the Spirit instructs us through all of God’s word. You see, we don’t ‘discard’ the law, we recognise the truth of it, the worth of it, the goodness of God in it, the holiness of God in it, the justice of God in it, we love the law of God, we delight in it after the inward man, just as Paul does in Romans 7. But we also recognise that as long as we live in this world with the flesh as well as the Spirit, that to put ourselves under the rule of law will simply flare up the sin within our flesh. To walk in the Spirit and produce conduct in keeping with the law’s demands we need to be lawfully delivered from the law, to cease to be under it. Whenever the flesh is put under the law the result is not righteousness but sin. That is the same for the believer's flesh as well as the unbeliever's.

I think this is where you go wrong in your understanding - you fail to recognise properly that the law isn't made for the new man of grace, the spirit, because that is born of God, and that which is born of God does not commit sin (see 1 John), but it is directed at the flesh to expose the sin therein, it flares up sin in the flesh and it condemns it. That is the purpose of the law, and it is the reason why the believer must be delivered from under it, so that he can walk in the Spirit, not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. That is what Paul teaches in Romans 6 – 8 and we recognise it and believe it.

And we also recognise the worth of all God’s word, all the words of Christ in the Gospels, all the words of the Apostles in the epistles, all the word of God as inspired by the Holy Spirit. We walk in a way of righteousness, by faith, in the Spirit, conformable to God’s will as revealed in scripture by the Spirit.

But we follow all of God’s instruction, and we do not misuse it Stucco. We rightly divide it. We learn to see the difference between Old Covenant and New. Between the First Adam and the Last Adam. Between Flesh and Spirit. Between Works and Faith. Between Law and Grace.

When God by the Spirit says ““For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God” (Gal 2:19) and tells us to “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage” (Gal 5:1) we meekly, submissively, willingly do as God instructs us. We do not put ourselves back under law which we are dead to, because then we could not live unto God. We do not entangle ourselves again with the yoke of bondage, because then we would not be free in Christ, in the liberty wherewith He hath made us free. What God has put asunder, we do not seek to join together.

By faith, in the Spirit, we keep God’s commandments. All that Christ commands us through the Gospel we willingly keep, as enabled by grace, as led by the Spirit.

Now, as to this walk Stucco, of course it isn’t easy. Walking in the Spirit isn’t automatic. Of course we are involved and we strive, we push forwards, we seek to overcome sin, we mortify the deeds of the flesh. What causes the trouble is that we still have the flesh, and the flesh warreth against the Spirit. But that is why we walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh. The law was given to show up sin in the flesh – it provides no power to restrain it, it only fuels it. To put yourself under law is not to walk in the Spirit but to seek to perfect the flesh by use of law, which never happens. In fact if under law sin has dominion over you. The only way to fulfil the law, to avoid sin, to walk in the Spirit, is not to be under the law. As it is written:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”
Romans 6:14-15



In Galatians 5 we read the following:

Quote
“For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”

Consider this passage carefully. Faith worketh by love and love is the fulfilling of the law. Faith and love however are fruits of the Spirit, not the law, and to have the fruits of the Spirit, we walk in the Spirit. If we are led of the Spirit we are not under the law.

No, we walk in the Spirit, not under the law. He produces fruit in our lives – Faith and love included. Faith worketh by love, and love fulfils all the law’s demands. So although we are not under the law, we don’t break the law, because we are led of the Spirit who gives us faith and love which fulfils the law. The Spirit certainly instructs us through ALL the scriptures, but He never puts us back under law, in bondage to it, or to be ruled by it. No, we walk in liberty in Christ. We are ‘just’ in Christ and…

“The just shall live by faith”.

Pilgrim #10576 Thu Feb 19, 2004 6:36 AM
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Hogwash to you perhaps Pilgrim <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Still crystal clear to me - a day later.

Clearer in fact <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I would also add that to my poor ,wretched,underdeveloped mind that Mr.Potts is making more sense than any one else on this particular thread. That might change however...<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

#10577 Thu Feb 19, 2004 6:57 AM
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Ian, you are new to this board and I thank you for the patience and grace you are showing in your posts. My wife,who does some typing for me here now and again has noticed this too. You are being taken to task by various folk (some dont even understand this thread)from all sorts of angles and you are writing with Christian Love .May God give you the strength to continue in this vein <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Proverbs 15:28 KJV

#10578 Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:45 AM
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Mark,
I would add that your comments toward us have not been so gracious. You have accused those here of never knowing grace before your enlightened friend has shown us our error. It seems obvious that you have brought Mr Potts here for this debate. I believe he has been treated graciously here, even though he is a teacher of error. I will leave it to God to decide whether he is a brother or not. Our responsibility is to defend the truth. If we let error to go unchallenged, seeing the damage it does to those who embrace it, we are unfaithful soldiers. After visiting other forums, I have been shocked that administrators would allow errors to be taught without a challenge. I know Pilgrim would rather die than to let errors go unchallenged here! Sadly Mark, you cannot see this or appreciate it.

#10579 Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:53 AM
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Susan,

Mark and I never 'met' before I turned up on this forum. Mark's only knowledge of myself was that someone told him about an article I have on my website which Mark then looked at and posted a link to on this forum.

A friend of mine noticed that, mentioned it to me, so seeing as my article was being referenced I thought I should join in the discussion.

But until I turned up here Mark and I had never met, or corresponded. The friend he was discussing these things with must be someone else.

What I have posted on here Susan is not error. It is the Gospel of Christ, and unless you can show clearly from scripture where any error in my teaching lies then any assertions of yours that I teach error are merely that - assertions.

Yours in Grace,
Ian Potts

#10580 Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:43 AM
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What I have posted on here Susan is not error. It is the Gospel of Christ, and unless you can show clearly from scripture where any error in my teaching lies then any assertions of yours that I teach error are merely that - assertions.
Your heresy has been dealt a death blow myriad times here and in various ways. We have given sound exegesis of Scripture and you have returned nothing more than eisogesis. We have given you sound logic and reason of the Scriptures and you have given back nothing but illogical reasoning and blind bias against the holy law of God. We have given you the statements of several historic Confessions of the Reformed Churches which have withstood both time and assault and you have given us nothing more than the heretical musings of but two men, J.C. Philpot and Huntington.

It is YOU who claims to be preaching the "Gospel of Christ" to us poor, ignorant, and deceived souls, thus implying and even stating that we preach a "false gospel". It would appear that we also differ as to the definition of what the Gospel actually is. But if we were to accept your definition, just out of interest, then it would be YOU who is preaching "another gospel", for we simply believe that which has been always believed by the saints. Not only do we have our own sound exegesis to stand on, but we also have the testimony of the entire Church. This, my good man Mr. Potts is how Sola Scriptura works. After studying the infallible Word, which is the sole and final authority in all matters of faith and practice (not you sir), the true child of God then consults with those who have gone before and those who are contemporary with him/her to compare their own conclusion with those of others. For we are all subject to error. The Scripture is infallible and inerrant; we are not. Secondly, the Spirit Who guides us into all truth was FIRST given to the Church and Who thus gave gifts to certain men and appointed them to serve as Apostles, Prophets, Pastor-Teachers, etc. for the upbuilding of the saints. Thus we acknowledge that there are those who are far more gifted and learned than ourselves to whom we may consult as a safe-guard against our own errors. Therefore, having studied the Scriptures prayerfully and then comparing it with those others who have gone before me and having found that my conclusion agrees with the overwhelming majority of the most gifted and godly men who also have rejected your view as fallacious, I am more than confident that the truth is mine and not yours.

Thus, the Church has produces Creeds and Confessions with a two-fold purpose, 1) To preserve the faith once delivered unto the saints, 2) To expose and guard against heresy, which is always wanting to gain a foothold. You would be hard pressed, Mr. Potts, to find one Confession written by any of the Reformation denominations which gives credence to your Antinomianism. The Spirit was in those who penned those many and various documents. And it is the same Spirit Who indwells my soul and Who has led me to the truth of the Gospel and Who has testified to my spirit that you are teaching false doctrine. That's sufficient enough for me.

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#10581 Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:38 PM
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Mark,
Here are some of your inflammatory statements you have made on this thread.
Quote
Hello Brian.

I thought you were living in the shadow of Ben Nevis.

Alas poor man, you do appear to be living in the shadow of Mt Sinai. Seek Zion.
Quote
Ian, I believe I understand your points and feelings here quite well.

What is concerning me is that some here talk about Gods Law and a moral law.

1 Timothy 1:7 sums this up very well and is often ignored.

Some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling,DESIRING TO BE TEACHERS OF THE LAW;UNDERSTANDING NEITHER WHAT THEY SAY,NOR WHEREOF THEY AFFIRM.

Thank you Ian for your input on this thread.Many here are learning about Grace for the first time I would imagine.

It's odd how you would refuse to go to a church that doesn't hold to the Westminster standards and now can easily discard these same standards regarding the law of God. What has happened to change that? Do you think those 'divines' didn't understand grace either? You are a very mixed up man, Mark! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/dizzy.gif" alt="" />

Stucco #10582 Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:38 PM
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Quote
Stucco writes,

I'll try to come up with an answer--and if I don't have an answer.....well, my wife says that I never let a little thing like "lack of knowledge" prevent me from offering an opinion.
That's a great line... I'll have to remember that one. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Wes <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bravo.gif" alt="" />


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
#10583 Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:28 PM
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Susan said:
Quote
After visiting other forums, I have been shocked that administrators would allow errors to be taught without a challenge. I know Pilgrim would rather die than to let errors go unchallenged here!

I have noticed the same thing on other forums and I too was disappointed, not only that it goes unchallenged, but that it goes on indefinately.

One of the things I noticed early on here on the Highway was that the Staff let a discussion of heresy continue for as long as a useful purpose was served in doing so, ie; the purveyor of the error could be shown same and perhaps benefit, the reader could see how error was sown, and how it was corrected thus being made more wise unto salvation if having ears to hear, participants could learn by digging in their Bibles and Commentaries and benefiting all around from the truth being presented and defended.

I can say, without equivocation, that I have learned more on this site about various doctrines, heresies, and simply differing opinions about legitimate differences in understanding, in a little more than one year, than I think I could have learned anywhere else. It has been a blessing to me in many ways.

In Him,

Gerry

Last edited by acts2027; Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:41 PM.
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Thankyou ladies and gentlemen for your input on this thread.

There is much here for us to pray about and study through.

I believe this thread has gone "full circle" and is "burnt out" .

Locking this thread would be a good idea IMHO, before folk get too personal and trade insults.

Thanks again to those here who offered constructive ideas and thoughts <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/thanks.gif" alt="" />

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Pilgrim said:
Quote
What I have posted on here Susan is not error. It is the Gospel of Christ, and unless you can show clearly from scripture where any error in my teaching lies then any assertions of yours that I teach error are merely that - assertions.
Your heresy has been dealt a death blow myriad times here and in various ways. We have given sound exegesis of Scripture and you have returned nothing more than eisogesis. We have given you sound logic and reason of the Scriptures and you have given back nothing but illogical reasoning and blind bias against the holy law of God. We have given you the statements of several historic Confessions of the Reformed Churches which have withstood both time and assault and you have given us nothing more than the heretical musings of but two men, J.C. Philpot and Huntington.

Pilgrim,

Mark is right - this thread has probably run its course. However as a final response to your comments above, I say you have not given sound exegesis to many of the passages I have brought up. For example:-

Quote
“Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”
1 Timothy 1:5-11

You had a go at this, but I responded showing how your exegesis was lacking and really didn’t address who the ‘righteous man’ referred to was, or how the law was ‘not made’ for him.

Quote
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”
Romans 6:14-15

“Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
Romans 7:4-6

“For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.”
Galatians 2:19

“Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Galatians 3:21-29

Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Galatians 4:21-31

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Galatians 5:1

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16-25

“For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
Matthew 11:30

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious
.”
2 Corinthians 3:6-11

In response to my teaching regarding all the above passages all you have done is to assert that I confuse justification and sanctification, yet you have provided no sound exegesis of any of these passages to demonstrate that they refer only to justification, and cannot be applied to the believer’s walk as they most surely relate to. My exposition of these and other passages gives clear demonstration that they do indeed regard the believer’s walk, as not being under law, but under grace.

On the other hand I have dealt with many passages including all of the following and have shown clearly how they don’t in any way contradict the truth that the Gospel, not the law, is the believer’s rule of life, and I have given much of the sense and the meaning of them:-

Quote
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 5:17

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.”
Romans 7:12-13

“If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good”
Romans 7:16

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”
Romans 7:22-25

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”
Romans 8:7

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”
Romans 13:8-10

"If ye love me, keep my commandments. . . .
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:15,21

“As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.”
John 15:9-10

“For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.”
1 John 5:3

“A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”

John 13:34-35

I would refer readers back to previous posts in this thread to see what I have said about these various passages, and what you have said in reply. To see if indeed it is you who performs eisogesis when you read “The Moral Law” into such verses as John 14, “If ye love me keep my commandments”, and yet provide no scriptural backing to show that in that case “commandments” does not also refer to the Ceremonial or Judicial aspects of the same law which you seek to ‘read into’ the verse.

As to your claim that I “have given” you “nothing more than the heretical musings of but two men, J.C. Philpot and Huntington”, I should like to know what passages from either of these men I have quoted in my posts? Have I not, in fact, quoted scripture and expounded on that?

However the thread started with the words of Gadsby, a man sent of God, and greatly used of God, as enlightened by the Holy Spirit in the scriptures, whose arguments and points regarding the believer’s rule of life – the Gospel – have not been refuted in the course of this thread. As we started with him, I feel it only fair to end with him and pose some of his, as yet unanswered, questions again…

Quote
1st. If the Law is the believers rule of life, I shall thank ye to tell me what is intended by the letter written by the apostles and elders, and sent to the believing Gentiles, as recorded in Acts XV and shall expect you to explain the chapter.

2ndly Hope you will tell me what the apostle means in the first six verses of Romans VII, where he says that the believer is dead to the Law, and free from the Law; and let me know how that Law can be his rule, when he is dead to it, and free from it, as a woman is from her husband when she has buried him. Should you be disposed to say that the believer is dead to it as a COVENANT, but not as a RULE of life; you will, no doubt, point to those scriptures which make a distinction between the Law as a Covenant and as a rule of life; for, unless you do this, you will not move me.

3rdly You will have the goodness to inform me what is intended by the first four verses in Romans VIII; and let me know how it comes to pass that the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ has made me free from the Law of Death, and yet that Law of Death [called in another place the killing letter] is my rule of life; and how it is that it is my rule of life after it has killed me, and I am made free from it.

4thly You will read 2 Corinthians III, and let me know how it is that the administration of death, written and engraven on stones, is the living mans rule of life, and how this can be consistent with what the apostle observes in verse 11 where he says it is done away, and in verse 13 where he says it is abolished. Now my dear Sir, you are to tell me how that Law which is done away and abolished still remains the believer’s perfect rule of life.

5thly You will also show me how it is that the Law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that when faith is come we are no longer under a schoolmaster, and yet that this schoolmaster is our rule of life after faith has come [Gal III:24-25]

6thly You would inform me how it is that if we be led by the Spirit we are not under the Law, and yet that the Law is a perfect rule of life to that man who is led by the Spirit [Gal V:18] There are many things in the epistle to the Galatians which you will find worthy of your attention in this business. I hope you will read the whole.

7thly Shall expect you to tell me how it is that the handwriting which against us, and contrary to us, is taken out of the way, and nailed to the cross, [As Col 2:14] and yet remains a perfect rule of life. Should you be disposed to say that the Ceremonial Law is here intended, you will tell me how that Law, which was the gospel in its day, came to be against the believer, and what there was in it contrary to him.

8thly You will be sure to inform me how it is that that Law which is not made for a righteous man is the righteous mans rule of life [1 Tim 1:9]

9thly As Christ was made under the Law, to redeem them that were under the Law [As Gal 4:4,5], you will say how it comes to pass that they still remain under it in any sense that Christ was made under it, seeing He was made under it to redeem them from under it.

10thly But as whatsoever the Law says, it says to them that are under the Law, [As Romans 3:19] and as the believer is not under the Law, [As Romans 6:14,Gal 5:18] you will inform me what the Law says to them who are not under it.

11thly If the Law contains the whole will of God, as to matter of obedience, as Fuller and others have said, you will let me know upon what ground you prove that unbelievers have no right to be baptized, and partake of the Lords supper, seeing that what the Law says it says to them that are under it; and if it contains the whole of obedience it must require unbelievers to be baptized. You will be sure to reconcile this if you can.

12thly You will inform me how it is that while men contend for the Law being a perfect rule of life to the believers and call those ill names who do not, they can and do, openly, knowingly, and designedly, break the 4th commandment every week. You will inform me whether doing EVERY sort of work on the 7th day is walking according to that rule which says "Thou shalt not do ANY work, no, not so much as kindle a fire" [Exod 35:3]

13thly, and lastly. You will inform me how it is that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth [Rom 10:4] and yet that the believer, who is got to the end of the Law at once, namely, by faith in Christ, must come back again, and begin at the beginning by taking it for a perfect rule of life.

May the Lord be pleased to lead all His blood-bought children into the truth of the Gospel of Christ, as led by the Spirit of God, unto His glory and the praise of His Holy Name.

In God’s Matchless Grace,
Ian Potts

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,562
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Tom Offline
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What name does this particular view go under?
By the sounds of it Mr.Potts and Mark have bought into it.
Is it NCT?

Tom

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Tom:

You asked:
Quote
What name does this particular view go under?
By the sounds of it Mr.Potts and Mark have bought into it.

The name of the view, and a clouded one at that, is antinomianism, and yes, it would be fair to say the Potts and Mark have not only bought into it, but are attempting to get others to invest into it too.

In Him,

Gerry

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