The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Horeb and Westminster

In Deuteronomy 5 :3 it says : "The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers,but with us,even us,who are all of us here alive this day"

WCF 19:1-2 says the opposite- that Adam was under this law before it was given.

I REALLY need help on this......please

Hmm. Confusing isn't it?

I think it is worth looking at what God commanded Adam too. He told him not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, for if he ate of it he would surely die.

That 'knowledge' although it appeared attractive and 'to be desired to make one wise' actually caused mankind to die. It became a 'ministration of death' to him.

Such is the law. That tree was a picture of the law. Likewise the Tree of life was a picture of Christ, of grace in the Gospel.

So if the tree which Adam ate of was a picture of law, and he was commanded NOT to eat of it, then the command given to Adam seems to be the complete opposite of the covenant made with Israel at Sinai. Adam was told not to go that way. Of course the law given to Israel was given to them to prove to them the same lesson which Adam learned - that the law only fuels sin, and the consequence of sin is death. That man's greatest need is to be delivered from sin, from death, from hell, from Satan, by Christ, who died for His people to bring them through death into everlasting life. Man's greatest need is to eat of the Tree of Life.

Rank eisogesis! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" /> Where in all of Scripture is it to be found that the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was a "ministration of death"? Where is it written that God's prohibition to Adam was a "ministration of death"? Where is it written that the "tree was a picture of the law."? Egads man.. to what length will you go to promote your Antinomianism? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />

Any Presbyterian Pastors care to deal with this please ?

I'm sure Joe could help when he returns. Meanwhile....

Are the words "covenant" and "command" one and the same ?

I still cannot see that WCF 19:1-2 in refering to Genesis 1:26 and 2:17 is one and the same "covenant" as that delivered at Horeb .

Just a moment Pilgrim! Don't be quite so swift to scorn my comments.

The Tree of Life is widely ackowledged to symbolise Christ. But where in scripture does it specically say "the tree of life is Christ"? It doesn't. It is picked up on in Revelation and symbolically that is its meaning, but it isn't stated (much like other imagery in Revelation - we need the Spirit to lead us into the truth of it).

So we can't expect a statement in scripture telling us 'The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a symbol of ****'. No, we understand it by the Spirit, and by what is obvious from the meaning.

The tree was a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Well what else tells gives us knowledge of good and evil? The law does. And when Adam ate of that tree sin entered, and death by sin. He was condemned. Well, the law does the same thing! Romans 7:9 tells us "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died". Just like Adam's experience, isn't it?

Now, where do we read of the 'ministration of death' and the 'ministration of condemnation'? In 2 Corinthians 3:7,9. This is a reference to the law, the Ten Commandments, engraven in stone. Agreed? And that law was done away with, 3:11 agreed? Why? Because is is exceeded in glory by the ministration of the spirit, of righteousness, 3:8,9, which is the New Covenant, the Gospel of Christ.

So scripture tells us that the law is a ministration of death. The law sets forth knowledge of good and evil, and by it it slays, it condemns man. Just like the tree which Adam ate of.

The main purpose of the law is to show to man his sin, condemn him, and through its shadows and types of the Gospel (as seen by the sacrifices and priesthood) point him away from the works of the law unto Christ. So the law acts as a ministration of death to man to bring him to the point where he cries out to God for mercy through the death and sacrifice of the Lord Jesus. In other words once slain by the law, man needs to go to Christ - the tree of life. The cermonial aspects of the law in its imagery picture the Gospel, but the precepts of the law are a knowledge of good and evil, by which man is condemned because he is a sinner. It finds him out.

You may not agree with my interpretaion, but one thing it isn't, is far fetched. The obvious connections of truths here are there to be seen.

And it sure isn't Antinomianism. I love the law, but I know the effect it has, not because it is faulty (Oh no! It is holy, just and good - Romans 7:12), but because we all have sin in us, in our flesh, believer or unbeliever, as Romans 7 explains:-

"For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."

You see there is nothing wrong with the law, it is what the law produces in man that is the trouble - the fruit of it is death. And there was nothing wrong with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but the eating of its fruit brought death. What we need, like Adam is to eat of the Tree of Life - Christ, in whom is eternal life.

When I began my introduction to C T ,several Christian friends advised me that I would have problems with the WCF, especially Chapter 19. This was nearly a year ago and I think I can see what they meant.

Yes, I still disagree with your "interpretation" and see it as nothing less than rank eisogesis. It is based upon one speculation upon another. And you added that one comes to understand these things "by the Spirit". And how many present-day fanatics, e.g., Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, and every Premil Pretrib Dispy "prophet" has come to "understand the Scriptures by the Spirit's teaching"? Sorry, but I'm a Grammatico-Historico hermeneutic type guy.

Now, as to this statement I quoted above, which is from your reply, the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil didn't cause death, sir! The Spirit enlightened me by revealing to me:

Genesis 2:16-17 (ASV) "And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Adam and Eve's eating of the fruit of that tree was not the cause of their subsequent death. But it was the consequence of their disobedience; the transgression of a very specific command of God which forbid them to eat that fruit. There is no need to spiritualize or allegorize the text. The meaning is clear enough, at least for this old guy!

In His Grace,

Mr Potts,

I think you are reaching just a little too far in your "connections" and what the "spirit" is revealing to you!
You said:"You see there is nothing wrong with the law, it is what the law produces in man that is the trouble - the fruit of it is death."

The law does not "produce" the evil in man, it is there in our nature's! If it is not pointed out to us by the law, we wouldn't even notice it. This is why we need the law, it is the rule of life for those who want to imitate Jesus.
Again, "He who loves ms, will follow My commandments." I think this statement is pretty clear on it's own.

In His Hands,

Ruth

Yes, I realise that Pilgrim, and I actually said "the eating of the fruit" brought death, the act of disobedience. Adam was commanded not to eat of the tree, but he disobeyed and died. But God's command wasn't simply some 'abirtrary' command. It wasn't simply the fact that Adam disobeyed God, as though if God had told him not to touch his toes and he did that he would also have died. There was significance in the thing which God commanded him not to do. God knew that the 'fruit' of that tree was bad for Adam (and I don't mean literal fruit but the spiritual reality of it).

This is just the same as with law. God gave the law to us to prove our sin, to condemn us, kill all confidence in the flesh and our own works and shut us up to Christ alone for salvation. That's the law's main purpose.

Once the law has had that effect on us, and we cry out to God for mercy, and He hears our cries and quickens us to life by the Spirit, having fled to Christ to be washed in His blood, then our flesh has been cruficed with Christ at the cross. We are risen with Christ and are delivered from the law.

Now God gives us a commandment, and we, like Adam would do well to hear it, because if we disobey then we just bring upon ourself condemnation and death again. The commandment is here:-

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."
Galatians 5:1

Why is that? Because we are married to Christ, and should not commit adultery by returning to our old husband. See Romans 7:4:

"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."

How do you understand those verses Pilgrim?

BTW Just because I say we are under grace, not law, does not mean in any way that I hate the law. In fact for some time I have had the following article on my website, saying just that. Perhaps you'd like to read it:-

http://www.ipotts.freeserve.co.uk/article12.html

In Grace,
Ian

Ruth,

What I mean by 'produces' in man, is that when the law addresses man it flares up the sin in man. That isn't the law's fault it is man's fault because sin dwells in his flesh. See Romans 7:9-12.

That is the same for believers Ruth. We still have the flesh, and the effect of law upon us is just the same. Sin is flared up and we can't do that which we wish to do (what the law says!). By faith in Christ, delivered from the law, we DO FULFIL the law. That's the point!

Allow me to explain this a bit. We are sinners Ruth. Sin is in our flesh. But it can lie dormant at times. The law functions by showing us our sin by actually exposing it, by 'provoking' it as it were, by bringing what is hidden in our hearts to the surface so that we can't fool ourselves that it isn't there - it becomes very plain that it is.

Think of a child. If I have a pot of cookies in the house and say nothing about it, the child may or may not find them and may or may not eat them. But if I tell that child where the cookies are and NOT to eat them or else, then what happens? Well we all know, that more often or not the child will start thinking about the cookies, and although he knows it is wrong he will go against the command, overcome by the temptation and eat some. So the command not to, tends to provoke the sin. The child knows it is wrong, but sin flares up.

That is exactly the same with us spiritually and is the experience which Paul describes in Romans 7. He is a sinner, but the law exposes it, flares it up, and in so doing kills him. He wants to obey the law but find the sin in his flesh makes him do the opposite!

But when freed from it by Christ's death for Him, by being risen in Christ, by walking in the Spirit (see Romans 8), he then fulfils the law, the only way it can be done. By walking in the Spirit, by faith, looking unto Jesus.

This experience of Paul's in Romans 7 though Ruth is just that - experience. Not everyone knows it. Most unbelievers have no regard for the law and never attempt to keep it. But those whom God is saving He brings under the law, and by the law teaches them that they are sinners. They strive to keep it, they want to keep it, but it slays them because of their sin. That is their experience. They love the law, it is good, but they cannot keep it. They then find wonderful deliverance in the Saviour whom they find to be all their righteousness. It is when they have been brought completely to an end of themselves and their own abilities that they then find peace, pardon, deliverance through the cross of Christ and His shed blood. They then know what it is to walk in the Spirit by faith.

But I can't teach you that, or anyone else. It is an experience that God brings one through. But it is wonderful that God does work in us and bring us through these experiences to make us perfect in Christ Jesus.

Again, you seem to be ignoring what others are saying to you. You repeated back to me exactly what I said to you, only in a longer, more wordy way! Could you just answer 2 questions please:
1. What commandments Jesus says we are to obey, if we love Him?
2. What EXACTLY do you mean when you say we "walk in the Spirit"? Give precise examples of what we are and are not to do, please.

In His Hands,

Ruth

I'll have a go Ruth, if I may <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

1.Love your neighbour.

2.We walk in Faith .This is Christian Law (Romans 3:27)Are we not led by The Holy Spirit ? Through Faith ?

Any help <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />?

Wow ! Hello Carol <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />Welcome to the Highway.

Perhaps you should arrive here a little more gracefully <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Ponder.gif" alt="" /> ?

Btw,I like blue but not here <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/puke.gif" alt="" />