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#11439 Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:55 PM
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Oops! Sorry. I didn't mean to be rude. If I came across that way, please forgive me. And thanks for the welcome, Mark! Carol

#11440 Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:15 PM
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You remind me of me when I first discovered cyberworld <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/dizzy.gif" alt="" />.

No offence taken btw <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

#11441 Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:06 PM
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Ian said:
This experience of Paul's in Romans 7 though Ruth is just that - experience. Not everyone knows it. Most unbelievers have no regard for the law and never attempt to keep it. But those whom God is saving He brings under the law, and by the law teaches them that they are sinners. They strive to keep it, they want to keep it, but it slays them because of their sin. That is their experience. They love the law, it is good, but they cannot keep it. They then find wonderful deliverance in the Saviour whom they find to be all their righteousness. It is when they have been brought completely to an end of themselves and their own abilities that they then find peace, pardon, deliverance through the cross of Christ and His shed blood. They then know what it is to walk in the Spirit by faith.
But again, you are setting the 3 persons of the Trinity against each other.

God gave mankind a set of commandments, either written on the heart (pre-Moses) or on tablets of stone, which set forth what holiness is, which all men are to conform themselves and by which they shall be judged for not keeping perfectly. The Son in Christ Jesus came to establish these commandments and He followed these same moral laws His entire life and even paid the penalty for their transgression in behalf of those whom the Father gave Him. The Lord Christ sent the Holy Spirit in His place to dwell in believers to guide them into the truth and to aid them in their conformation to these same commandments as they are made holy.

There is no "second righteousness or holiness" apart from nor superior to the revealed and inspired revelation of God which we have in the Bible. I would point out to you these words of the Lord Christ which bear heavily on this subject:

Matthew 5:18, 19 (KJV) "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."


James 2:10-11 (ASV) "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one [point], he is become guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou dost not commit adultery, but killest, thou art become a transgressor of the law." . . . 14 "What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?"


So once again, we see the Scripture affirming the perspicuity of the moral law of God and applied to believers, not as a means of justification, but binding upon them as a rule of life. "Experience" is not our tutor. And He Who is our tutor, the Holy Spirit, brings us to the WORD, wherein is written the way of life in Christ Jesus.

Greg Welty has written a critique and total rebuttal of your Antinomian view and upholds the historic Reformed/Calvinistic doctrine concerning the perpetuity and binding character of God's holy moral law for believers.

You can find it here: Eschatological Fulfilment and the Confirmation of Mosaic Law.

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#11442 Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:07 PM
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1.Love your neighbour.

2.We walk in Faith .This is Christian Law (Romans 3:27)Are we not led by The Holy Spirit ? Through Faith ?

Any help <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />
Summing up the commandments as loving God and man in no way lessens the demands of the law. Ian is replacing the moral law with what he perceives to be a lesser law, but Jesus clearly showed that keeping the commandments goes deeper that anyone thought and penetrates to the motives of the heart. The law is what the Spirit uses to convict you when you harbor angry or lustful thoughts. The law makes you aware that you have sinned and the Spirit convicts you of your sin. Your love for God will make you hate that which God hates and to say, "How then can I do this great wickedness and sin against God? The Holy Spirit and the Word work together not apart from one another.

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2 Timothy 3 :16 All Scripture [including the moral law] is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

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We are not simply informed inwardly by the Spirit; rather, we are informed explicitly by the law. therefore, to set our minds on the things of the Spirit means to make God's law the absorbing object of our thoughts. We do not have to wait for the Spirit to tell us what to do, for He has already told us in His law, in the word which is the Spirit's sword.
Being Human by Ranald Macaulay and Jerram Barrs

We cannot ignore the moral law. All Scripture is valuable for us. Some parts of the law have been fulfilled and are no longer binding on a Christian. The ceremonial law was fulfilled by the ultimate sacrifice of Christ. The entire law as given to the children of Israel, consisted of three parts, the moral, the judicial and the ceremonial.

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What then is the position with regard to the law and the prophets? I have already tried to show ou how the prophets have been fulfilled in and through our Lord Jesus Christ; and yet there still remains something to be fulfilled. What about the law? We can say with regard to the ceremonial law, as I have shown , that it has been already completely fulfilled. Our Lord observed it in His life while here on earth, and He exhorted the disciples to do the same. In His death, resurrection and ascension the whole of the ceremonial law has been entirely fulfilled. In confirmation of that, as it were, the temple was later destroyed. The veil of the temple had already been rent in twain at His death and finally all that belonged to it were destroyed...

What of the judicial law? This was primarily and especially for the nation of Israel, as God's theocracy, in its then special circumstances. But Israel is no longer the theocratic nation. You remember that at the end of His ministry our Lord turned to the Jews and said, 'Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you , and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.'...And the apostle Peter, in 1 Peter 2: 9,10, makes it abundantly clear that the new nation is the Church...
That leaves us with the moral law. The position with regard to this is different, because here God is laying down something which is permanent and perpetual, the relationship which must always subsist between Himself and man. It is all to be found, of course, in what our Lord calls the first and greatest commandment. 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind.' That is permanent. That is not for the Theocratic nation only; it is for the whole of mankind. The second commandment , He says, 'is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.' That again was not only for the theocratic nation of Israel; that was not merely the old ceremonial law. It is a permanent condition and part of our perpetual relationship to God. Thus the moral law, as interpreted by the New Testament, stands now as much as it has ever done, and will do so until the end of time and until we are perfected. In 1 John 3, the apostle is very careful to remind his readers that sin in Christian people is still 'a transgression of the law.' ...The law is still there, and when I sin I am breaking that law, though I am a Christian and though I have never been a Jew, and am a Gentile. So the moral law still applies to us. pp. 194, 195
Martyn Lloyd-Jones Studies in The Sermon on the Mount

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Hi Mark,

Well, I'm afraid that I still don't find how to live my life by your answer. I do love the Lord and try to imitate His life, which he lived by following the law! I know what I am to do and what I am not to do by the law. "Walking in the Spirit" sure sounds good, but WHAT does it mean? Is that like "what would Jesus do"? Jesus fulfilled the law for me, does that mean that I don't have to do what He did? I can just "love" my neighbour, and what is meant by that, exactly?

Try and give me some explicit examples please Mark.

In His Hands,

Ruth


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Well Carol,

Just slam right in here and say your piece by all means! If you can find some good examples of Scripture erasing the moral law, I sure would like to see them please! And if you would care to, give me some ideas of how to live by "walking in the Spirit". I mean some specific ways to "love your neighbor" without using any reference to the law, which was given by God to mankind as a rule of life. When did "keep my commandments" become "remember, treasure up, my commandments"? Is not Jesus part of the Trinity? How can His commandments be different than God's?
It is easy for you and Ian to say that you live in the Spirit and the law is dead, but I want to know who changed God's prescription for the way to live? Did God change? The law expresses His nature, His direction for human behavior. Did Jesus' fulfilling it, change anything in it? Is it not still what God demands of His children, even though we cannot fulfill it perfectly? Are we not to imitate Jesus? These questions Ian has not answered, nor have you.

In His Hands,

Ruth


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Ruth #11445 Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:13 PM
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Hi Ruth,

I believe if we strive to keep our eyes on Christ, we will begin to change. We will begin to love our neighbors and will know what things we need to do to show that love, and of course we will want to and begin to keep the commands in the bible, but keeping the commands will not be our main focus. Our main focus is Christ. Whenever we feel insufficient or sinful, we should take our eyes off ourselves and look to Christ, not work harder to keep the rule. Remind ourselves he is sufficient and just rest in him. Now as we do this, our love for him will grow and we will begin to do good works, (works of the law), but not out of duty, --out of love for him. And not because we are striving to do it, just because it’s what we want to do.

Read the word because Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. As we do this, we will begin to keep the law more and more (never perfectly), because he will give us faith, but I don’t believe we should make the law some rule we have to follow. To me, that takes our eyes off of Christ and puts them on the rule. And before we know it we are glorying in our keeping of the law or worried because we don’t.

I believe our focus should not be to try to follow the law or even to stop sinning, our focus should be to keep our eyes on Christ and the other two things will begin to happen because it is the Holy Spirit working in us. Now that to me is rest.

Carol

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I believe our focus should not be to try to follow the law or even to stop sinning, our focus should be to keep our eyes on Christ and the other two things will begin to happen because it is the Holy Spirit working in us. Now that to me is rest!
I must ask you, "Why are you bifurcating a love for Christ, focusing upon Christ from that which Christ Himself tells us should be that which we do as an expression of our love for Him; i.e., 'If you love me, keep my commandments.'?" Why is "duty" such a disdainful word to you? Are not all whom God has saved from destruction and reconciled to Himself in Christ Jesus obligated to offer thanksgiving, worship, adoration and obedience to Him? Regeneration is that which creates a spiritual predispostion, a natural affection to do that which God requires; i.e., to be holy. Before regeneration, we are predisposed to do that which we also loved, i.e., transgress the law of God; aka: sin. Repentance is truly a turning from sin (transgressing the law) to doing righteousness (conforming to the law).

In all the Reformed Confessions, see for example, the Heidelberg Catechism,

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[color:"blue"]Heidelberg Catechism - Lord's Day 32[/color]


Q86: Since, then, we are redeemed from our misery by grace through Christ, without any merit of ours, why must we do good works?
A86: Because Christ, having redeemed us by His blood, also renews us by His Holy Spirit after His own image, that with our whole life we show ourselves thankful to God for His blessing,[1] and that He be glorified through us;[2] then also, that we ourselves may be assured of our faith by the fruits thereof;[3] and by our godly walk may win others also to Christ.[4]

1. Rom. 6:13; 12:1-2; I Peter 2:5, 9-10, 12; I Cor. 6:20;
2. Matt. 5:16; I Peter 2:12
3. Matt. 7:17-18; Gal. 5:6, 22-23
4. Rom. 14:19; I Peter 3:1-2; II Peter 1:10

Q87: Can they, then, be saved who do not turn to God from their unthankful, impenitent life?

A87: By no means, for, as Scripture says, no unchaste person, idolater, adulterer, thief, covetous man, drunkard, slanderer, robber, or the like shall inherit the kingdom of God.[1]

1. I Cor. 6:9-10; Eph. 5:5-6; I John 3:14-15

our "duty" is always described as doing what God requires of us out of gratitude. Loving God is keeping His commandments, for we are to be perfect and holy as HE is perfect and holy. This is nothing new as it was taught in both the O.T. and the N.T. (cf. Lev. 20:7; 1Pet 1:15, 16). In fact, the apostle Paul describes believers as "bondservants to Christ":

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Romans 6:15-18 (ASV) "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves [as] servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered; and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness."

The Spirit of God always works in conjuction with the written Word, of which He was the author. Being "led by the Spirit" is not some ethereal, mystical, secret and alien guiding that is divorced from the revealed will of God; the Scriptures. When a believer is faced with the circumstances of daily life, and asked, "Lord, what wouldst thou have me to do in this place?", one should not expect to suddenly find himself speaking words he is totally unfamiliar with and which he himself didn't desire to speak. Nor should one expect to find his body doing something beyond his own control. The Spirit simply doesn't work in that manner. Yes, the Spirit works IN us to do that which is most pleasing to God according to His Word. Although the Bible should never be thought of as an encyclopedia of the Christian Faith, it does contain both specific commandments and principles which are sufficient to answer any and all situations. (2Tim 3:16, 17) What is our responsibility is to study the Word and know it completely and then to put it into practice (Col 1:9, 10). We should not expect the Spirit to work some "magic" in our lives as we "focus on Jesus". As Paul admonishes his readers, 2 Thess 3:10 (KJV) "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." Negligence in seeking knowledge from the Scriptures and calling upon God in prayer to give us an understanding of how to apply that knowledge, aka: wisdom is not only unacceptable, it simply isn't taught in the Scriptures themselves.

Philippians 2:12-13 (ASV) "So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure."


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#11447 Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:55 PM
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Hi Carol,

Pilgrim has answered you very well if you will read his response. I disagree that we can stop trying to correct our sin, and just "look to Jesus" to perform good works. We are told to "strive to enter by the narrow gate", and "make your calling and election sure", doesn't sound like "rest" to me. Yes, we must constantly continue in the Word, that is where we learn, and that is where we find how to live by faith. It doesn't "just happen" as we "look to Jesus", as if by magic as Pilgrim says. Perhaps you are trying to avoid legalism by eliminating the law, but you are going too far and fooling yourself that you can let Jesus do everything for you with no effort on your part to conform yourself for the kingdom.

In His Hands,

Ruth


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Ruth #11448 Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:01 PM
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I disagree that we can stop trying to correct our sin, and just "look to Jesus" to perform good works. We are told to "strive to enter by the narrow gate", and "make your calling and election sure", doesn't sound like "rest" to me.
Amen! You preach it sister, I stutter!

Some of the many salient passages which uphold this truth; that we are to "strive" after holiness, put off sin, etc., can be seen here:

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1 Corinthians 10:14 (ASV) "Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry."


1 Timothy 6:11-14 (ASV) "But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of the faith, lay hold on the life eternal, whereunto thou wast called, and didst confess the good confession in the sight of many witnesses. I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:" (note that "keep" is not to remember, but to do something.)


2 Timothy 2:19-21 (ASV) "Howbeit the firm foundation of God standeth, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his: and, Let every one that nameth the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness. Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some unto honor, and some unto dishonor. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, meet for the master's use, prepared unto every good work."


2 Corinthians 7:9-10 (ASV) "I now rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye were made sorry unto repentance; for ye were made sorry after a godly sort, that ye might suffer loss by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation, [a repentance] which bringeth no regret: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (Paul is speaking to the Corinthians who professed faith in Christ.)


Ephesians 4:17-23 (ASV) "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart; who being past feeling gave themselves up to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye did not so learn Christ; if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt after the lusts of deceit; and that ye be renewed in the spirit of your mind,"


Colossians 3:5-10 (ASV) "Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry; for which things' sake cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience: wherein ye also once walked, when ye lived in these things; but now do ye also put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, railing, shameful speaking out of your mouth: lie not one to another; seeing that ye have put off the old man with his doings, and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:" (notice how Paul, in this admonition iterates many of the Ten Commandments!)


James 4:7-8 (ASV) "Be subject therefore unto God; but resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye doubleminded."

It seems undeniably clear from the presence of so many active verbs which demand action on the part of the believer, that one is clearly responsible to do righteousness, which is forever preserved in the commandments of God and of which the Epistles are their commentary.

In His Grace,


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Ruth #11449 Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:23 AM
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Well, I have tried doing it the way you speak of Ruth and it just doesnt work for me. Yes, I can sometimes perform the 'good works' or follow the law, but I find that when I do, I glory in it somewhat or I lament when I don't perform it well or at all. It is only when I look to Christ and rest in him that I feel relief. And it's funny, but that's when I find myself loving Christ more and wanting to read the word more and do what it says more without really even thinking about it. And it's like a huge burden has been lifted of my shoulders, not to have to worry about it all the time. But believe me, I do want to follow the commands of the bible because I love the Lord and want to do what he says. But I believe I only love him because he put that love there.

I can only go by my own experience. Maybe it doesnt work that way for you. I don't know.

Carol

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Ruth said:
Again, you seem to be ignoring what others are saying to you. You repeated back to me exactly what I said to you, only in a longer, more wordy way! Could you just answer 2 questions please:
1. What commandments Jesus says we are to obey, if we love Him?
2. What EXACTLY do you mean when you say we "walk in the Spirit"? Give precise examples of what we are and are not to do, please.

In His Hands,

Ruth

Ruth,

If you re-read my reply you will find that it isn’t exactly what you said to me, for I contend that the result of the experience described in Romans 7 of the law showing us our sin, and by it slaying us, is that we are then shut up to faith in Christ. Once we believe on Christ we see that our flesh was crucified with Him at the cross and that we are now dead to the law, delivered from it, risen again in Christ, married to Him to walk in newness of the Spirit, and NOT in the oldness of the letter (law) as it is written:-

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“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
Romans 7:6

In answer to your questions:-

1. I have answered this in the ‘Antinomian’ thread. See this post: #34691 on page 8.

Briefly as Carol has quoted:-

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“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us”.
1 John 3:23-24

2. Come with me to the scriptures Ruth. Read the following in Galatians 5:-

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“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16-25

This passage makes it clear that if we walk in the Spirit we are not under the law. This is also demonstrated in Romans 6, 7 and 8. Romans 6:14 tells us “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”. This is picked up in Chapter 7, “But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter”. And Chapter 8 goes on to discuss the difference between walking in the flesh (under law) and in the Spirit (under grace):

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“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”

May the Spirit lead you into all the truth of the Gospel of Christ Ruth.

#11451 Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:26 AM
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Carol said:
Hi Ruth,

I believe if we strive to keep our eyes on Christ, we will begin to change. We will begin to love our neighbors and will know what things we need to do to show that love, and of course we will want to and begin to keep the commands in the bible, but keeping the commands will not be our main focus. Our main focus is Christ. Whenever we feel insufficient or sinful, we should take our eyes off ourselves and look to Christ, not work harder to keep the rule. Remind ourselves he is sufficient and just rest in him. Now as we do this, our love for him will grow and we will begin to do good works, (works of the law), but not out of duty, --out of love for him. And not because we are striving to do it, just because it’s what we want to do.

Read the word because Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. As we do this, we will begin to keep the law more and more (never perfectly), because he will give us faith, but I don’t believe we should make the law some rule we have to follow. To me, that takes our eyes off of Christ and puts them on the rule. And before we know it we are glorying in our keeping of the law or worried because we don’t.

I believe our focus should not be to try to follow the law or even to stop sinning, our focus should be to keep our eyes on Christ and the other two things will begin to happen because it is the Holy Spirit working in us. Now that to me is rest.

Carol

God bless you Carol, you are walking in the pathway of faith. "Stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." Gal 5:1, For "If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law".

Truly I believe that it can be said of you, as Christ said unto Peter "Blessed art thou ...: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

In Grace,
Ian

Quote
"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."
Hebrews 4

#11452 Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:09 AM
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Hi Steve. I believe you are a friend of Ian Potts and I would be interested in your views on this subject . Are they the same as Ians ?

I have read many of your posts on the PB and Baptists Discussing Reformation forums .

#11453 Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:56 AM
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Posts: 187
Hello Mark,
I am indeed a friend of Ian Potts, though as to whether he thinks the same of me, I am uncertain. You are, I think, aka Ergatees on the reformedreader forum. Your views seem to have strayed somewhat from the stalwart Presbyterian stance you took there.
I have just posted on this topic on another thread. It might have been better to post it here. If Pilgrim sees fit to move it, that will be fine by me.

Every blessing,
Steve


Itinerant Preacher & Bible Teacher in Merrie England.
1689er.
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