The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Help with Tongues

Wookiee I completely disagree with you about "Perfection" coming meaning the completion of the text that makes up the Bible.

If ther Bible was "Perfection" then we would not be having this conversation because all the meanings in the Bible would be perfectly clear, regardless of the language it is written in.
Only in about 300 AD is there even the first attempt at compiling the Bible into one book. Even as late as Martin Luther there were people (Luther included) who argued against some books inclusion in the Bible (the book of James in Luther's case) And even today there is debate about the inclusion of some verses in the Bible. For something that would have Paul saying that when it comes understanding would be complete.
1 Corinthians 13:9-13 (The Message)
We know only a portion of the truth, and what we say about God is always incomplete. But when the Complete arrives, our incompletes will be canceled.
When I was an infant at my mother's breast, I gurgled and cooed like any infant. When I grew up, I left those infant ways for good. We don't yet see things clearly. We're squinting in a fog, peering through a mist. But it won't be long before the weather clears and the sun shines bright! We'll see it all then, see it all as clearly as God sees us, knowing him directly just as he knows us!
But for right now, until that completeness, we have three things to do to lead us toward that consummation: Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly, love extravagantly. And the best of the three is love.
What we say and know about God is STILL incomplete. We still don't see things clearly, especially nowhere as near as clearly as God sees us and knows us. Can any person on this earth know God as God knows us?
No. We don't see things clearly, nor do we know God as near as intimately as He knows us.
Now if the completion of the text which makes up the Bible was what Paul was refering to when he was talking about Completion (or Perfection depending on which version of the Bible you are using) then I would know God as intimately as He know Me, and I would see all thing clearly. There fore the Completion can only be Christ's Second Coming.

Secondly there are record of Iraneous talking in tongues And Iraneous was not born yet in 100AD. and John Wesley notes that the spiritual gifts were in decline in use after Constantine's time....roughly 337AD onwards. Wesley comments that the decline in their use as being a miserable mistake, made by Christians as the fervour of Christian's declined and they becamoe more cold hearted and Christianity became a state religion.
(Wesley believed that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were not only important but also were active during the 18th century Evangelical Revival.)

Secondly Paul lists the gift of Tongues right in the middle of two things which he states will only cease when Completion comes (I have just stated that I understand that Completion can only be defined as Christ's Second Coming and not the completion of the text making up the Bible) now with that grouping we can safely assume that Tongues will end the same time Prophecy and Knowledge. Now if Christ has not yet had His Second Coming, then Prophecy and Knowledge haven't ceased yet and neither has Tongues.

If you can cite any Biblical evidence for the cessation of the Gift of Tongues (and Prophecy and Knowledge for that matter) other than that passage, which the only time frame given is Christ's Second Coming, then please let me know about it.

Do I beleive that there are Charismatics out there who do not have the gift of Tongues like they claim to? Most certainly. Same as there are people out there who claim to be saved but at the end of the day weren't really Christian.
Do I beleive that there are Charismatics out there who misuse/abuse/falsify the gift of tongues? Most certainly. And I beleive they will answer to God for their actions.
BUT I do beleive that the Gifts of Tongues, Prophecy and Knowledge are alive and functioning in the Church today.

but I would some links to some info responding to the specific accusations that tongues are still alive.

What does Paul mean when he says "face to face" and "know as I am known"? Taking what I believe about his words here in 1 Cor 13 - that spiritual gifts are needful at the present time of Paul's writing to help the church grow as the canon of revelation is being completed through the apostles - the church will one day reach a point to where they are no longer a child. They become a man, who is no longer dependent upon babyish things. In the context of 1 Cor. 13, this would be spiritual gifts. It is particularly the 3 mentioned in 13:8, prophecy, knowledge and tongues, which represent the categories of gifts discussed in chapter 12.

Paul is basically saying that at the time of his writing of 1 Corinthians, he, along with the saints at Corinth, only know a part of God's whole revelation. They had, as it were, just the various pieces of a much larger jigsaw puzzle. Eventually, that entire puzzle will be put together. When Paul says that they will see "face to face," he is not talking about the actual, physical presence of Christ. In fact, the idea of Christ's second coming and the eternal state are not even in this text; at least in my estimation. If we examine Paul's metaphor, he writes about seeing in a mirror darkly. The idea is that the image he is seeing is obscured in some manner. The word for mirror is the same one James uses in James 1:23. Paul has in mind a looking glass, but the image in this looking glass is marred, and he is unable to fully see the image. However, eventually, he will be able to see face to face. In other words, he will be able to see his own face in the mirror, and the image is no longer obscured. What I believe Paul to be saying is that at that point, the full revelation of God was yet to be completed in the word of God. He and the Corinthians only had a part of it. In essence, the full revelation was obscured because it was not yet complete. But, Paul was confident that one day, he would be able to see it all clearly, just like looking in a polished mirror that reveals the entire image of a man's face. Now the next phrase,"know as I am known," is a tad more difficult to interpret, but I believe Paul is simply saying that he will have all knowledge for spiritual maturity. He has already discussed knowledge in 13:8, and there, knowledge is connected to prophecy; both divinely enabled gifts. What I think Paul is conveying is that there will no longer be a dependence upon direct, divine revelation revealed through gifted men, but all revelation will be contained in the canon of the NT.

I understand the perfect as the completed canon, and I do so for a couple of reasons:

1)First, "teleion" is better rendered "the completed," rather than "the perfect." During the time of the apostles, the divine revelation of prophesy and knowledge would still be in transmission. God was still in the process of giving revelation to the church through the apostles and the prophets. However, I believe Paul had in mind that a new covenant document, just like the OT, would be provided by the Lord. Thus, the completed revelation of God's New Covenant revelation would eventually come to the Christians.

2)Furthermore, the illustrations Paul uses are analogous to this idea of partial revelation in comparrison to completed revelation. Paul uses three major illustration: (1) A child replaced by an adult (13:11); (2) the hazy replaced by the clear (13:12) (by the way, I understand the phrase "face to face" not to refer to seeing Jesus in his full glory, but as a analogy of a person being able to see a clear reflection, as opposed to a hazy reflection); (3) Imprecise knowing replaced by precise knowing (13:12). The whole point of Paul's words in 13:8-12 is to inform us that these gifts had a specific purpose for a stated period of time. Eventually, they will come to an end. I think tongues ended at the destruction of Jerusalem, and prophecy and knowledge at the finishing of the NT canon.

Now the next phrase,"know as I am known," is a tad more difficult to interpret, but I believe Paul is simply saying that he will have all knowledge for spiritual maturity. He has already discussed knowledge in 13:8, and there, knowledge is connected to prophecy; both divinely enabled gifts. What I think Paul is conveying is that there will no longer be a dependence upon direct, divine revelation revealed through gifted men, but all revelation will be contained in the canon of the NT.

The most learned doctor of theology, the person who you consider the absolute authority on things pertaining to theology, no matter who that person is, they are still a child, doing childish things, talking in childish ways, thinking in childish ways.

We all are because not one of us has reached our full maturity in Christ.

This guy has a good point; we do not have all knowledge and understand and don't know God as well as He knows us.

1Co 13:12 -
Through a glass
Rev., in a mirror. Through is by means of. Others, however, explain it as referring to the illusion by which the mirrored image appears to be on the other side of the surface: others, again, think that the reference is to a window made of horn or other translucent material. This is quite untenable. mirror occurs only here and Jam_1:23. The synonymous word does not appear in the New Testament, but its kindred verb to look at one's self in a mirror, is found, 2Co_3:18. The thought of imperfect seeing is emphasized by the character of the ancient mirror, which was of polished metal, and required constant polishing, so that a sponge with pounded pumice-stone was generally attached to it. Corinth was famous for the manufacture of these. Pliny mentions stone mirrors of agate, and Nero is said to have used an emerald. The mirrors were usually so small as to be carried in the hand, though there are allusions to larger ones which reflected the entire person. The figure of the mirror, illustrating the partial vision of divine things, is frequent in the rabbinical writings, applied, for instance, to Moses and the prophets. Plato says: “There is no light in the earthly copies of justice or temperance or any of the higher qualities which are precious to souls: they are seen through a glass, dimly” (“Phaedrus,” 250). Compare “Republic,” vii., 516.
Darkly
Lit., in a riddle or enigma, the word expressing the obscure form in which the revelation appears. Compare in dark speeches, Num_12:8.
Face to face
Compare mouth to mouth, Num_12:8.
Shall I know
American Rev., rightly, “I shall fully know.” See on knowledge, Rom_3:20. The A.V. has brought this out in 2Co_6:9, well known.
I am known
The tense is the aorist, “was known,” in my imperfect condition. Paul places himself at the future stand-point, when the perfect has come. The compound verb is the same as the preceding. Hence American Rev., “I was fully known.”

We all are because not one of us has reached our full maturity in Christ.

Now I know in part. There were limitations upon the knowledge even of Paul; only a part was seen.
But then, when the veil is taken away, and the full revelation has come in the presence of Christ, he shall know fully, know God, eternity and its secrets, even as he is known to God. Thus it is shown that all these spiritual gifts are fleeting.

1Co 13:8-13 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (KJV)

averagefellar said:
One other serious problem your friend will have is historical support.......he has none. For 1800 years, this gift was considered ceased. Even some of the early church writers noted this.


God bless,

william

I don't have the quotes from Iraneous on hand anymore, but I do have quotes from John Welsey:
"`All these [spiritual gifts] worketh by one and the self-same Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will;' and as to every man, so to every Church, every collective body of men;...seeing He who worketh as He will, may, with your [Middleton's] good leave, give the gift of tongues, where He gives no other; and may see abundant reasons so to do, whether you and I see them or not. For perhaps we have not always known the mind of the Lord; not being of the number of his counselors" (Works, 10:56).
"Since the Reformation, you say, `This gift has never once been heard of, or pretended to, by the Romanists themselves.' But has it been pretended to (whether justly or not) by no others, though not by the Romanists? Has it `never once been heard of' since that time? Sir, your memory fails you again: It has undoubtedly been pretended to, and that at no great distance either from our time or country. It has been heard of more than once, no farther off than the valleys of Dauphiny. Nor is it yet fifty years ago since the Protestant inhabitants of those valleys so loudly pretended to this and other miraculous powers, as to give much disturbance to Paris itself. And how did the King of France confute that pretense, and prevent its being heard any more? Not by the pen of his scholars, but by (a truly heathen way) the swords and bayonets of his dragoons" (Works, 10:55-56).

In his Journal entry for August 15, 1750, he wrote, "I was fully convinced of what I had long suspected, 1. That the Montanists, in the second and third centuries, were real, scriptural Christians; and, 2. that the grand reason why the miraculous gifts were so soon withdrawn, was not only that faith and holiness were well nigh lost; but that dry, formal, orthodox men began even then to ridicule whatever gifts they had not themselves, and to decry them all as either madness or imposture."
(The Montanists were known for talking in "Tongues"...be they valid or false)

Although Wesley never emphasized certain gifts such as predictive prophecy or tongues and their interpretation, he did regret their loss to Christians in general. In his sermon, "The More Excellent Way," he writes, "The cause of this [decline of spiritual gifts following Constantine] was not, (as has been vulgarly supposed,) `because there was no more occasion for them,' because all the world was become Christians. This is a miserable mistake; not a twentieth part of it was then nominally Christian. The real cause was, `the love of many,' almost of all Christians, so called, was `waxed cold.' The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other Heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine his Church, could hardly `find faith upon earth.' This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church; because the Christians were turned Heathens again, and had only a dead form left."