averagefellar said: One serious dilemma your friends creates is an open canon. If prophecy has not ceased, scripture may still be open and Sola Scriptura is false. To be a Christian, you have to uphold a closed, completed canon.......which means that prophecy has ceased.
what if they say it's supplemental or otherwise... make something up?
Romans 8:29 (in Arminian): For whom He foreknew, He also [foreknew] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Then they would be heretical, admitting God is not done revealing His will.......hence, NO Sola Scriptura yet. Ask them to provide all that is necessary for salvation since scripture didn't cover it? Does God speak apart from the Bible today?
I Cor 14 3But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
What if they come at you with that?
Romans 8:29 (in Arminian): For whom He foreknew, He also [foreknew] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
I'm unsure how that fits in. Here are a few thoughts.......
1Co 14:3 But1161 he that prophesieth4395 speaketh2980 unto men444 to edification,3619 and2532 exhortation,3874 and2532 comfort.3889
Strongs; G4395 prophēteuō prof-ate-yoo'-o From G4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office: - prophesy.
I would wonder why he believes the office of prophet is still necessary with the perfect Word completed. I would also question where this office went for 1800 years, especially since the early church never recognized its continuation. Please explain what you are putting forth by this passage.
The People's New Testament
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He that prophesieth. To prophesy means more than to foretell. It is to declare the will of God under a divine impulse. When Peter spoke on Pentecost, he did the work of a New Testament prophet. In this formative period of the church, before the New Testament was written, it was needful that there be these inspired guides in the churches.
Just a couple of comments about two or three of the comments from your friend you posted up above.
First, your friend can stick his fingers in his ears and repeat 1 Corinthians 14 over and over again all he wants, but the fact remains that Church history stands opposed to him with regards to the manifestation of tongues as a practice in worship services. Granted, there were cultic groups and unorthodox Christian groups that practice ecstatic speech, but that was not the gift of tongues, nor would your friend wish to appeal to these groups as support for his position.
Second, I do not trust Wesley as an authority on the issues of gifts. Wesley's theology was riddled with perfectionism, the belief that a believer can acheive absolute sinlessness here in this earthly life. His appeal to the notion of spiritual gifts is born more out of a desire for Christians to obtain a higher spiritual plain of existence so as to acheive perfection, rather than commenting upon something that was commonplace among the experience of Christians during his day. What your friend needs to demonstrate is that tongues was practiced among many common, denominational congregations as a normal thing. Where in church history were tongues practiced as a means of worship among orthodox, Bible-believing Christians? Appealing to a handful of spurious citations from questionable sources does not establish it as a norm for God's people for today.
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Ok, I know pretty well the majority of the passage and various interpretations, but I still haven't found (or if I did it didn't hit me) the specific meaning of "I shall know just as I also am known". I'm sorry if someone answered this and I just didn't recognize it, but I read a few touching on it, but nothing really in depth about this specific part.
BTW, I'm working on reading articles on The Charismatic Movement... just haven't finished more than a few.. and some of the time those confused me.
Romans 8:29 (in Arminian): For whom He foreknew, He also [foreknew] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Shall I know American Rev., rightly, “I shall fully know.” See on knowledge, Rom_3:20. The A.V. has brought this out in 2Co_6:9, well known. I am known The tense is the aorist, “was known,” in my imperfect condition. Paul places himself at the future stand-point, when the perfect has come. The compound verb is the same as the preceding. Hence American Rev., “I was fully known.
ok, clearer, but still a little confused. instead of seeing dimly, he sees clearly, as clearly as he is known, right? but known by who? what is being used for the comparison? who has known him? God? nobody can see as clearly as God, correct?
thanks.
[edit] so he'll know fully, just like he's been known fully. is that using God's knowledge of him for the comparison or... ? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" /> [/edit]
Last edited by reformed yevot; Fri Aug 06, 20049:08 PM.
Romans 8:29 (in Arminian): For whom He foreknew, He also [foreknew] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
reformed yevot said: ok, clearer, but still a little confused. instead of seeing dimly, he sees clearly, as clearly as he is known, right? but known by who? what is being used for the comparison? who has known him? God? nobody can see as clearly as God, correct?
thanks.
[edit] so he'll know fully, just like he's been known fully. is that using God's knowledge of him for the comparison or... ? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" /> [/edit]
My understanding of v. 12 is simply this: Paul is comparing the present reality with that which is to come, i.e., glory (aka: the New Heaven and New Earth where we shall see the Lord face-to-face. cf. 1Jh 3:2). Thus all these things which he mentions are "inferior", e.g., knowledge, knowing, prophecy, etc. for they are but reflections of the true reality of God Himself, which He has given to us through the medium of His Word. One may see this same "inferior" communication in the teaching of the Lord Christ, Who often spoke in parables. The "inferiority" isn't to be seen in the actual content of the communication but in the medium of that communication. But it can also be said that the medium is perfect in that it serves its audience as it was and is intended to do. We, being yet plagued with the residuals of the Fall are yet incapable of comprehending the great truths and mysteries which are hidden and hinted at in the Word (now I know in part) but which will be fully known, as much as we as finite beings are capable of knowing, as God is capable of knowing us (as I was fully known).
It is Paul's purpose in this section bring things into their proper perspective and dispel the distortion of the present reality in which the Corinthians had made to be far more than they should have; i.e., these gifts were only temporal and inferior to the reality which was to come. They had lost sight of the reason these gifts were given; i.e., 1) to be a sign of the fact that God's grace of salvation in Christ was now universal in nature. 2) a verification of the authority given to the Apostles, 3) the fulfillment of the prophecies which spoke of the coming of the Holy Spirit Who will indwell each and every believer, et al. Thus these ecstatic/revelatory gifts were intended to be temporary until the universal church was firmly established by the Apostles. (cf. Eph 2:20). Once that had happened, and it did when the Gentiles had been brought into the Church, and the structure of the Church had been established by the Apostles, their use would no longer be needed and they would pass away, which they did.
How do you respond to this without calling them an outright lier?
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Justin Martyr (died 165) "For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time." Dialogue with Trypho, LXXXII, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. by Roberts and Donaldson, vol. 1, p. 240
Irenaeus (died 202) "In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God." Against Heresies, V,6,1, Ibid., vol 1, p. 531
Tertullian (died 220), replying to Marcion, a Gnostic: "Let Marcion then exhibit, as gifts of his god, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come, and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; let him produce a psalm, a vision, a prayer - only let it be by the Spirit, in an ecstasy; that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him...Now all these signs are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty, and they agree, too, with the rules, and the dispensations, and the instructions of the Creator..." Against Marcion, V,8, Ibid., vol.3, pp. 446,447
Novatian (died 257) "This is He who places prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings, does wonderful works, offers discrimination of spirits, affords powers of government, suggests counsels, and orders and arranges whatever other gifts there are of charismata; and thus makes the Lord's Church everywhere, and in all, perfected and completed." Novatian, Treatise Concerning the Trinity, XXIX, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. by Roberts and Donaldson, vol. 5, p. 641
Pachomius (died 346) was reported to have spoken "the language of angels...[and] after seasons of prayer, under the power of the Spirit, was able to speak languages which he had never learned." Alban Butler, The Lives of the Fathers, Martyrs, and other Principal Saints (1889 ed.), vol. 2, p. 218
Bishop Hilary of Poitiers (died 367) mentioned, among other things, "gifts of either speaking or interpreting divers kinds of tongues." He concluded, "Clearly these are the Church's agents of ministry and work of whom the body of Christ consists; and God has ordained them." Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, VIII,33, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, ed. by Schaff and Wace, 2nd series, vol. 9, p. 147
Theodore of Mopsueste (died 428) "Many heathen amongst us are being healed by Christians from whatever sickness they have, so abundant are miracles in our midst." A.J. Gordon, The Ministry of Healing, p. 62, quoting Christlieb’s Modern Doubt, p. 32
Augustine (430) experienced a revival that swept North Africa where he was bishop. He wrote of miraculous healings from breast cancer, paralysis, hernia - even raising of the dead after the funeral was arranged. In his own church, two epileptics were instantly healed after they had fallen to the floor in convulsions. "Praise to God was shouted so loud that my ears could scarcely stand the din." Spencer Gear, “St. Augustine: The Skeptic Who Believed,” Charisma, Sept. 1984, p.45
Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179) "sang in unknown words with such facility and winsomeness that her utterances were known as 'concerts in the Spirit'." George H. Williams and Edith Waldvogel, “A History of Speaking in Tongues and Related Gifts,” in The Charismatic Movement, ed. by Michael P. Hamilton, p. 70
Francis of Assisi (1182-1226) spoke in other tongues according to some editions of the Catholic Encyclopedia. Bernard L. Bresson, Studies in Ecstasy, p. 38
Clare of Montefalco (c. 1193-1253) spoke ecstatically in French, although her native tongue was Italian. Williams and Waldvogel in The Charismatic Movement, ed. by Hamilton, p. 70
The Waldenses (c. 1217) These followers of Peter Waldo believed in visions and prophecies.R. Kissack, “Waldenses,” The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, ed. by J.D. Douglas, revised edition, p. 1026 Both healing and speaking in tongues were manifested among these heavily persecuted Christians. Gordon F. Atter, The Third Force, p. 13
Bridget of Sweden (1302-1373) Concerning this daughter of Birger, Prince of Sweden, Butler records, "To speak the language of angels was the happy privilege of Saint Bridget," Butler, The Lives of the Fathers, Martyrs, and Other Principal Saints (1895 ed.), vol. 4, p. 67.
Louis Bertrand (1526-1581), Catholic missionary to South America, spoke in tongues according to Butler: "The gifts of tongues, of prophecy, and of miracles, were favors conferred by heaven on this new apostle, as the authentic history of his life...assures us." Ibid, 1889 ed., vol. 4, p. 73
Martin Luther (c 1540), According to the German church historian Theodor Sauer, Luther spoke in tongues: "Luther was easily the greatest evangelical man after the apostles, full of inner love to the Lord like John, hasty in deed like Peter, deep in thinking like Paul, cunning and powerful in speech like Elijah, uncompromising against God's enemies like David; prophet and evangelist, speaker-in-tongues and interpreter in one person, equipped with all the gifts of grace, a light and pillar of the church..." Translated from the German work, Geschichte der Chrislichen Kirche fur Schule und Haus (Dresden; R. Kuntzes, 1859), 3rd book, p. 400 Whether this refers to the actual gift of tongues (I Cor 12) or the romance languages (i.e. Latin, French, etc.) is not certain. That Luther believed in miracles is certain. In 1541 when Myconius lay speechless in the final stages of consumption, Luther prayed and he was restored to health. He also prayed for Melanchthon who was near death and God healed him also. Melanchthon said: "I should have been a dead man, had I not been recalled from death itself by the coming of Luther." A.J. Gordon, The Ministry of Healing, pp. 93-95
Early Quakers "We received often the pouring down of the Spirit upon us, and our hearts were made glad and our tongues loosed and our mouths opened, and we spake with new tongues as the Lord gave utterance, and as His Spirit led us." Bresson, Studies in Ecstacy, pp. 48-52
John Wesley. Wesley's journal record over 200 cases of Divine healing; including once when he prayed for his horse which had gone lame while he was on a preaching circuit, and the horse recovered.Journal, 11/1/50, cited by R.A. Knox in Enthusiasm. People in Wesley's meetings would be Spirit filled while he preached. "What so impressed and encouraged John Wesley and his followers, what so shocked, startled, and bewildered his contemporaries, is no mystery to the modern psychologist, to whom it is known as glossolalia, or "speaking with tongues"...After Paul laid his hands upon them "they spoke with tongues and prophesied," and such displays...had accompanied all the revivals of the faith and all the persecution of the martyrs. It is no wonder then, that John Wesley refused to listen to the skepticism of Charles (Wesley) or to the reproaches of his opponents, and continued to note down with interest...the extraordinary effects that he was able to produce in those who came to listen to him preach." Bowen, Marjorie, Wrestling Jacob, p.184ff
Thomas Walsh (one of Wesley's foremost preachers) made this entry in his diary; "This morning the Lord gave me a language that I knew not of, raising my soul to Him in a wonderful manner." Entry of March 8, 1750, quoted by Frodsham, With Signs following, p. 232
England (1830) There was a revival under Edward Irving where gifts of the Spirit were manifested. One member of the congregations writes: "The moment I am visited with the Spirit, and carried out to God in a tongue which I know not... I am more conscious than ever of the presence of God. He and He alone is in my soul. I am filled with some form of the mind of God, be it joy or grief, desire, love, pity, compassion, or indignation; and I am made to utter it in words which are full of power over my spirit, but not being accessible to my understanding, my devotion is not interrupted by association of suggestions from the visible or intellectual world: I feel myself, as it were, shut in with God in His pavilion, and hidden close from the invasions of the world, the devil, and the flesh." A.L. Drummond, Edward Irving and His Circle, pp. 161-162
Charles G. Finney "I received a mighty baptism in the Holy Ghost...No words can express the wonderful love that was shed abroad in my heart. I wept aloud with joy and love; and I do not know but I should say, I literally bellowed out the unutterable gushings of my heart." Charles G. Finney, Autobiography, p. 20
D. L. Moody "One the following Sunday night, when I got to the rooms of the Y.M.C.A. I found the meetings on fire. The young men were speaking in tongues and prophesying. What on earth did it all mean? Only that Moody had been addressing them that afternoon."Boyd, Robert, The Lives and Labours of Moody and Sankey, p. 47 At a meeting in Los Angeles, Dr. R.A. Torrey told of a service in London where Moody took the pulpit to preach and instead broke into another language. He tried again, with similar results. The third time, after prayer and praise, he was able to preach his message.Lennard Darbee, Tongues: The Dynamite of God, p. 24.
Charles H. Spurgeon A British preacher told how Spurgeon once asked his audience to forgive him that when he got especially happy in the Lord, "I break forth into a kind of gibberish which I do not myself understand." Ibid., p. 24
Romans 8:29 (in Arminian): For whom He foreknew, He also [foreknew] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
I simply say, "you're wrong. You've given me no reason, historically or scripturally to believe you speak in tongues." There comes a point where, although your evidence is overwhelming, your passages clear as crystal, your reasoning sound and they still will not believe you.
That post shows where the church has stood on the issue for over a thousand years. Old heresies never die. It is up to those claiming to speak in tongues to show there beliefs from scripture.
I am well aware of how charismatics cite quotations from church history in order to affirm their belief in tongues and other signs and wonders type gifts. However, like I was saying in one of my earlier posts, no one is necessarily disagreeing with them. There were quasi-Christian groups that involved themselves with mysticism that supposedly manifested spiritual gifts. The problem is that those groups were severely unorthodox. They had a warped Christian theology and many of the earlier Church fathers wrote against such groups. In fact, I would suggest that the citations yor friend offers from Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian are not necessarily positive affirmations for the continual use of tongues and miracles by Christians, but are rather condemnations of those false Christians who claim a believer must show forth these gifts in order to be spiritual.
The early writings of Church fathers are used by practically every wacky religious group as proof for that particular wacky religious group's beliefs. Mormons regularly cite church fathers for the purposes of affirming their blasphemous doctrine that God was once a man. The question to simply ask is this: are those citations in context? What is the author originally intending to address? I would say the same about the other quotes your friend provides. I would again point out the Charles Finney, John Wesley and his buds, and the Quakers (of all things!)are not credible sources for the establishment of Christian orthodoxy with regards to spiritual gifts, because they had deplorable theology. Finney was Pelagian, Wesley a perfectionist, and the Quakers were misreably goofed up to the point of denying the biblical doctrine of God's eternal wrath.
Don't be persuaded by a bunch of random quotations that are not tethered to any meaningful context. The burden of proof is upon your charismatic friends to demonstrate at least 6 things I can name off the top of my head:
1) Is their convictions concerning their interpretation of gifts affirmed by a proper reading of scripture?
2) Are manifestation gifts necessary for meaningful spirituality?
3) Why are they necessary in worship when the gifts were specifically designed for service?
4) Why are these manifestation gifts primarily present in Arminian oriented denominations like the AOGs and Vineyard type fellowships?
5) Why are these miraculous sign gifts, like radical healings, never done in a public arena? This is one real sticking point with me. I always hear about these stories of some dead person being restored to life, people having severed limbs restored, and other fable like stories, but none of them are ever verifiable. These kind of stories are like the UFO stories you hear on Art Bell's radio show. When Christ and the apostles did miracles, it was before an unbelieving crowd of witnesses. They weren't having healing services that were only taking place at the end of a service in the closed, controlled environment of a Church for the benefit of Christians only. The healings were verifiable and witnessed by great crowds.
6) Again, where in Church History did any orthodox denominations practice spiritual gifts as a regular part of their Church life? In all honesty, the urban legend like stories of Roman Catholic missionaries and other strange spiritual mystics like Francis of Assi, that can never be verified, really don't count as a witness to the reality of a continuation of gifts.
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Tertullian (died 220), replying to Marcion, a Gnostic: "Let Marcion then exhibit, as gifts of his god, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come, and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; let him produce a psalm, a vision, a prayer - only let it be by the Spirit, in an ecstasy; that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him...Now all these signs are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty, and they agree, too, with the rules, and the dispensations, and the instructions of the Creator..." Against Marcion, V,8, Ibid., vol.3, pp. 446,447
Tertullian was deemed a heretic and joined the Montanists, also a heretical group. A quick search will reveal plenty of this guy.
Here's a few more eliminated.......
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Novatian (died 257) "This is He who places prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings, does wonderful works, offers discrimination of spirits, affords powers of government, suggests counsels, and orders and arranges whatever other gifts there are of charismata; and thus makes the Lord's Church everywhere, and in all, perfected and completed." Novatian, Treatise Concerning the Trinity, XXIX, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. by Roberts and Donaldson, vol. 5, p. 641
This quote doesn't specifically say it was occuring then. You can read more about Novatian here Novatian.
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Pachomius (died 346) was reported to have spoken "the language of angels...[and] after seasons of prayer, under the power of the Spirit, was able to speak languages which he had never learned." Alban Butler, The Lives of the Fathers, Martyrs, and other Principal Saints (1889 ed.), vol. 2, p. 218
Reported by who? The Bible never says men can speak in an angelic voice. That is a case of eisegesis of 1Cor 13:1.
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Theodore of Mopsueste (died 428) "Many heathen amongst us are being healed by Christians from whatever sickness they have, so abundant are miracles in our midst." A.J. Gordon, The Ministry of Healing, p. 62, quoting Christlieb’s Modern Doubt, p. 32
Common straw man tactic. I believe God does heal. It's the plenipotentiary gifts I claim are ceased. God does heal people, every day. Does He do so based upon our faith? Does He leave it up to our 'profession'? Or does God do so according to His will?
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Augustine (430) experienced a revival that swept North Africa where he was bishop. He wrote of miraculous healings from breast cancer, paralysis, hernia - even raising of the dead after the funeral was arranged. In his own church, two epileptics were instantly healed after they had fallen to the floor in convulsions. "Praise to God was shouted so loud that my ears could scarcely stand the din." Spencer Gear, “St. Augustine: The Skeptic Who Believed,” Charisma, Sept. 1984, p.45
Did they know about breast cancer in Augustine's day? Notice the quote isn't directly from Augustine, but a small excerpt from a pro-charismatic publication?
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Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179) "sang in unknown words with such facility and winsomeness that her utterances were known as 'concerts in the Spirit'." George H. Williams and Edith Waldvogel, “A History of Speaking in Tongues and Related Gifts,” in The Charismatic Movement, ed. by Michael P. Hamilton, p. 70
Unscriptural understanding. How can you verify an unknown word to be a word at all?
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Francis of Assisi (1182-1226) spoke in other tongues according to some editions of the Catholic Encyclopedia. Bernard L. Bresson, Studies in Ecstasy, p. 38
Reaching I see? That makes a few of these quotes that have had suspect origins, no? Didn't this guy also bear the stigmata?
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Bridget of Sweden (1302-1373) Concerning this daughter of Birger, Prince of Sweden, Butler records, "To speak the language of angels was the happy privilege of Saint Bridget," Butler, The Lives of the Fathers, Martyrs, and Other Principal Saints (1895 ed.), vol. 4, p. 67.
Again, eisegesis of 1Cor 13:1.
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Martin Luther (c 1540), According to the German church historian Theodor Sauer, Luther spoke in tongues: "Luther was easily the greatest evangelical man after the apostles, full of inner love to the Lord like John, hasty in deed like Peter, deep in thinking like Paul, cunning and powerful in speech like Elijah, uncompromising against God's enemies like David; prophet and evangelist, speaker-in-tongues and interpreter in one person, equipped with all the gifts of grace, a light and pillar of the church..." Translated from the German work, Geschichte der Chrislichen Kirche fur Schule und Haus (Dresden; R. Kuntzes, 1859), 3rd book, p. 400 Whether this refers to the actual gift of tongues (I Cor 12) or the romance languages (i.e. Latin, French, etc.) is not certain. That Luther believed in miracles is certain. In 1541 when Myconius lay speechless in the final stages of consumption, Luther prayed and he was restored to health. He also prayed for Melanchthon who was near death and God healed him also. Melanchthon said: "I should have been a dead man, had I not been recalled from death itself by the coming of Luther." A.J. Gordon, The Ministry of Healing, pp. 93-95
Emphasis mine, and is self explanatory.
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Early Quakers "We received often the pouring down of the Spirit upon us, and our hearts were made glad and our tongues loosed and our mouths opened, and we spake with new tongues as the Lord gave utterance, and as His Spirit led us." Bresson, Studies in Ecstacy, pp. 48-52
John Wesley. Wesley's journal record over 200 cases of Divine healing; including once when he prayed for his horse which had gone lame while he was on a preaching circuit, and the horse recovered.Journal, 11/1/50, cited by R.A. Knox in Enthusiasm. People in Wesley's meetings would be Spirit filled while he preached. "What so impressed and encouraged John Wesley and his followers, what so shocked, startled, and bewildered his contemporaries, is no mystery to the modern psychologist, to whom it is known as glossolalia, or "speaking with tongues"...After Paul laid his hands upon them "they spoke with tongues and prophesied," and such displays...had accompanied all the revivals of the faith and all the persecution of the martyrs. It is no wonder then, that John Wesley refused to listen to the skepticism of Charles (Wesley) or to the reproaches of his opponents, and continued to note down with interest...the extraordinary effects that he was able to produce in those who came to listen to him preach." Bowen, Marjorie, Wrestling Jacob, p.184ff
Thomas Walsh (one of Wesley's foremost preachers) made this entry in his diary; "This morning the Lord gave me a language that I knew not of, raising my soul to Him in a wonderful manner." Entry of March 8, 1750, quoted by Frodsham, With Signs following, p. 232
England (1830) There was a revival under Edward Irving where gifts of the Spirit were manifested. One member of the congregations writes: "The moment I am visited with the Spirit, and carried out to God in a tongue which I know not... I am more conscious than ever of the presence of God. He and He alone is in my soul. I am filled with some form of the mind of God, be it joy or grief, desire, love, pity, compassion, or indignation; and I am made to utter it in words which are full of power over my spirit, but not being accessible to my understanding, my devotion is not interrupted by association of suggestions from the visible or intellectual world: I feel myself, as it were, shut in with God in His pavilion, and hidden close from the invasions of the world, the devil, and the flesh." A.L. Drummond, Edward Irving and His Circle, pp. 161-162
Charles G. Finney "I received a mighty baptism in the Holy Ghost...No words can express the wonderful love that was shed abroad in my heart. I wept aloud with joy and love; and I do not know but I should say, I literally bellowed out the unutterable gushings of my heart." Charles G. Finney, Autobiography, p. 20
All held to suspect theology and a second working of the Holy Spirit.
Several suspect quotes from some very suspect people. Not one time did I see any verification that these were actually languages and several fit into an eisegesized interpretation of scripture. That's over half refuted or brought into question. Considering some of the sources, I could hardly accept the remaining quotes as evidence of the gifts remaining with us.
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