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Pilgrim,

Of course there is freedom of will in external things but not in spiritual matters. For example, man has no free will to accept or reject the gospel. Man does, in fact, reject the gospel but not because of free will but because of his enslaved will.

Once you postulate that man is free to do evil (reject the gospel), you must accept that there is cause of salvation within man. This is completely contrary to all the solas of the Reformation. The Reformation fathers understood this but, apparently, this teaching is lost on our modern Pelagian world.

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Please Provide Scriptural Exegesis for Your View? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/doah.gif" alt="" />


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(Fred) So, in order to be regenerated, one will need to be baptized correct? Thus, it is safe to assume with your position that you believe that when an infant is baptized that the infant is regenerated?

No. The Holy Spirit works faith when and where it pleases God in them that hear the gospel. We baptize (and preach)solely on the command of Christ.

(Fred) Well, that is funny. Up above in some of the posts, you seem rather insistent that baptism is a sacarament. In fact, you stated:

It is not the act of baptism that regenerates but the word of God that is in and with the water, and faith that trusts in the word of God.

So, if the Holy Spirit is the one that works, what is the point of the baptism? Can there be any efficaciousness to it as applied to infants? Surely, if you are a good Lutheran, you practice infant baptism? And if regeneration is wrought through baptism in the sense that it is a mixture of the word of God and faith trusting in the word of God, then your system must keep open the possibility of infants with believing faith who are regenerated?
Either way you wish to explain your system, ultimately the entire thing suggests that by the act of baptizing a baby that baby can have faith and be regenerated. However, I am at a loss of finding anything remotely suggesting such a scenario in scripture.

Fred


"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
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fredman,

Baptism with water in the name of the Holy Trinity is always efficacious because it is God's work alone not an act of man. It is beneficial when received by faith alone.

John the Baptist was regenerated and given faith in the womb by the outward word of Mary. This is proven because joy is a fruit that follows faith. If an unborn child in the womb can be given faith, then surely a child can receive faith through the outward word of Baptism.

Lutherans don't keep a scoreboard of conversions based on baptisms or preaching. We are commanded to baptize and to preach. We know baptism and preaching are efficacious. That is enough.

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We know baptism and preaching are efficacious.<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" />

Please exegete a passge of Scripture to prove either of these (baptism or preaching) is efficacious?


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#17854 Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:03 AM
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Baptism with water in the name of the Holy Trinity is always efficacious because it is God's work alone not an act of man. It is beneficial when received by faith alone.

(Fred) Is it efficacious for Roman Catholics as well? Furthermore, where does scripture teach that baptism is a work of God alone so that it begets regeneration?

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John the Baptist was regenerated and given faith in the womb by the outward word of Mary. This is proven because joy is a fruit that follows faith. If an unborn child in the womb can be given faith, then surely a child can receive faith through the outward word of Baptism.

(Fred) So you would argue that the experiences of John the Baptist, the last of all OT prophets and the forerunner of Jesus Christ, is normative for all believers? Faith must be acknowleged by the recepient by repentance, a changed life and conforming to Christlike holiness. All children who are then baptized and are regenerated under your system should demonstrate that saving faith with out a doubt. That still leaves my other question unanswered: Can baptized, regenerated Children who grow up to deny the faith of Lutheranism, or Christianity in general, be said to have "lost their salvation."

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Lutherans don't keep a scoreboard of conversions based on baptisms or preaching. We are commanded to baptize and to preach. We know baptism and preaching are efficacious. That is enough.

(Fred) Again, I would apprecitate some passages that specifically states that baptism is efficacious. I know God uses the channel of preaching to bring saving faith to a sinner, but where does the Bible teach that water baptism plays this role?

Fred


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J_Edwards said:
Please Provide Scriptural Exegesis for Your View? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/doah.gif" alt="" />

Romans 9 proves that man has no free will to do good (accept Christ) or to do evil (reject Christ). Before we existed and could do nothing either good or bad, we were according to God's purpose chosen by grace in Christ unto salvation. He has mercy on whom he has mercy and whom he will He hardens. Thereby, all false opinions that there is cause in man (i.e., free will to do good or evil or to accept or to reject Christ) are overthrown.

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speratus wrote:
Romans 9 proves that man has no free will to do good (accept Christ) <span style="background-color:yellow">or to do evil (reject Christ)</span>.
But again, you are simply asserting that man has no freedom to do evil. This is hardly a "defense" of your position. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" /> As I posted in one of my replies to you, providing quotations from some of the major Confessions, they all affirm that man is truly "free" to act according to his nature. Thus the unregenerate man has total freedom to SIN, according to his depraved nature, with the qualification that God has ordained all things and restrains the evil which man could do via direct providence and common grace. Men, by nature, sin most freely and willingly. But they cannot and will not do anything but sin, i.e., any type or form of good.

So, along with J_Edwards and many more who are reading your replies and trying to see how you have come to this view, I ask you, Where is the Scriptural support (exegesis of passages) that you base your view upon?

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simul iustus et peccator

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fred (and J Edwards),

1. As long as the denomination does not change the words or the meaning of the words, "in the name of...", Christ's institution is efficacious./Mark 16:16, Eph. 2:8,9. Mark 16:16 tells us that baptism saves us through faith alone. Eph. 2:8, 9 tells us that nothing that saves us is a work.
2. You asked for an example; I gave you an example./Fruits of faith follow in children also./Rom. 11:33.
3. Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Gal. 3:26, 27; 1 Peter 3:21; Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor.6:11; Mark 16:16; Eph. 5: 25, 26.

Last edited by speratus; Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:28 PM.
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Pilgrim,

Since you have ignored my evidence from scripture and the Reformation fathers, I see no point in providing additional evidence.

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What evidence and what exegesis of Scripture have you provided? I have seen none. Please exegete the passage in Rom 9 you were speaking about and PROVE your position.

PS: Proof is different than assertion.


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#17860 Wed Sep 29, 2004 2:37 AM
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speratus said:

Once you postulate that man is free to do evil (reject the gospel), you must accept that there is cause of salvation within man. This is completely contrary to all the solas of the Reformation. The Reformation fathers understood this but, apparently, this teaching is lost on our modern Pelagian world.

I stand corrected. Not all modern theologians have lost this teaching.

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The sinner is never forced to sin. But the sinner is not free to do either good or evil, because an evil heart within is ever inclining him toward sin. Let us illustrate what we have in mind. I hold in my hand a book. I release it; what happens! It falls. In which direction? Downwards, always downwards. Why? Because, answering the law of gravity, its own weight sinks it.

God's Sovereignty and the Human Will, A.W. Pink

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1. As long as the denomination does not change the words or the meaning of the words, "in the name of...", Christ's institution is efficacious./Mark 16:16, Eph. 2:8,9. Mark 16:16 tells us that baptism saves us through faith alone. Eph. 2:8, 9 tells us that nothing that saves us is a work.


(fred) Hmmm...That sounds more like some sort of magical mantra formula than biblical doctrine. Does it even matter that the person's life changes and conforms to godliness, or is such a change irrelevant? This viewpoint has the trappings of your general, run of the mill non-Lordship, carnal Christian doctrine believing gospel.

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2. You asked for an example; I gave you an example./Fruits of faith follow in children also./Rom. 11:33.
3. Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Gal. 3:26, 27; 1 Peter 3:21; Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor.6:11; Mark 16:16; Eph. 5: 25, 26.


(Fred) SO you are telling me that children, nay, infants, have the ability to mortify the flesh as Romans 6 proclaims, to bear the fruits of the spirit as listed in Galatians 5, crucify themselves daily to follow Christ? Where have you ever seen this? None of these passages you list for us even suggest such a thing. You will need to give something more substantial that that, and I would add, it will need to be correctly interpreted. So far, all I have read from you is Lutheran tradition.

Fred


"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
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fredman,

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That sounds more like some sort of magical mantra formula than biblical doctrine.

Yes, rational man rebels at the idea that the Almighty God works through His Word alone creating and sustaining faith in a tiny child. Do you believe in sola fide? If so, how are tiny children saved without faith?

#17863 Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:56 AM
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The sinner is never forced to sin. But the sinner is not free to do either good or evil, because an evil heart within is ever inclining him toward sin. Let us illustrate what we have in mind. I hold in my hand a book. I release it; what happens! It falls. In which direction? Downwards, always downwards. Why? Because, answering the law of gravity, its own weight sinks it.

God's Sovereignty and the Human Will, A.W. Pink [/quote]

Pink's analogy is great. A book has no power to stop its fall (do good) or to accelerate its fall (do evil). When it encounters the edge of a desk (hears the gospel), it either falls on the desk (believes the gospel) or falls off the edge (rejects the gospel). Why one book stops its fall and another does not is not determined by any property of the books since all books fall at the same rate (original sin).

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