The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Edwards on "Seek the Lord"

Yes, I see that in his sermons. But doesn't he also say that the unregenerate will not succeed and may eventually become discouraged and despair of helping themselves? Seeking the Lord only brings the unregenerate to the point where they recognize their total inability to seek the Lord.

Is it not the duty of all men to seek the Lord “rightly”? Is it not true that some men seek God wrongly—for the wrong reason(s)? Is it not just that God prove His own Word revealing men cannot change themselves and that salvation is by grace alone? And should not the sinner be in his condition as a result of his sin and God’s just judgment? Does not seeking the Lord in the fashion Edwards said improve the man—though not save him? Will not this man that sins less have less things to be judged for in eternity? Is not God just? Edwards said in God Makes Men Sensible of Their Misery Before He Reveals His Mercy and Love

William C. Nichols said: The proper method of seeking involves man's doing all that is in his natural power to seek God. One of the most common expressions in Puritan writings is "use the means." Although it is not in man's moral ability to find God, it is in his natural ability to do certain things which might increase the possibility of his being saved or put him in a way of salvation. The Puritans constantly urged upon men the necessity of doing all they could. An unregenerate man is capable of using his eyes to read. He can choose to read the Scriptures or pornography. An unregenerate man's legs can carry him either to the church or the tavern. Thomas Watson wrote,


Please read the rest of the article: SEEKING GOD and look at the example of those in Nineveh (Jonah) as an example of impending judgment, the use of means, and God's mercy and grace.

Yes, Isa. 55:6, 7. But, it's a duty that no man can fulfill: Ps. 14:2, 3.


Yes, except I would say that all men seek God wrongly and for the wrong reasons.


Election is not a question of odds-making. Before the worlds, God determined how everything that pertains to our conversion would occur. He uses our sinful seeking and evil motives to bring us to the "means".


The people of Nineveh were regenerated through the word preached by Jonah, "the means", and God heard their prayers (Jonah 3). So this was not a case of the unregenerate seeking God through prayer.

Speratus it is THEIR DUTY! No one is disputing that they can not attain it in and of themselves, but this does not relieve duty! Not seeking IS SIN!

Can a unregenerate person read the Bible? Is reading the Bible wrong? While he may do it for the wrong reasons (to justify himself, etc.), reading the Word of God is not in and of itself wrong. Is attending church by the unregenerate wrong (yes, it can be done for the wrong reasons, but are you really going to judge every incident and say it is wrong no matter what...)—you better keep them from sinning and lock them all out. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

And who said “election” was “a question of odds-making”? To seek the Lord is not to elect one's self, but rather to make use of the means God has enjoined to humanity either for their reprobation or election.

Furthermore, for you to say ALL seeking is sinful is to make Christ the author of sin? God has them seek so they may see their total inability, etc, etc, etc. Is the mission of the Church to evangelize and have missions then educing ALL sinners to sin more—what a great commission? While I do admit that some will sin more after and during their seeking, this does not make “all” (without exception) seeking itself sinful. What was it that Paul said;

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Really, so all of Nineveh did not fast, did not pray, “until” they were regenerate!!! While the text is clear that ALL fasted and prayed … do you think EVERY person in Nineveh without exception was regenerate? If you do please prove it from Scripture! PS: when you quote Jonah 3:3-4 as evidence please exegete what it means … Maybe this will help you, who knows <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />

In the mean time, I think Packer sums it up nicely from this article here: The Old Gospel and the New.

Correct!


The unregenerate will sin whether we lock them out or not. They are incapable of doing good; they do not seek God. Romans 3:10-20. We are commanded to preach the gospel to them ("the means"), not lock them out. Mark 16:15, 16.


Seeking the Lord is not the gospel. It is another law that the unregenerate can not keep. Once they have despaired of seeking the Lord by their own efforts, the Holy Spirit may open their ears through the preaching of the gospel, "the means".



I seem to have missed the Edwards' sermon where he congradulates the unregenerate for sinning less by going to church. I suspect the unregenerate do sin more when they stop up their ears to the preached word.


I don't know how many regenerate were in Nineveh but Sodom was destroyed because 10 righteous could not be found. The prayers of the unregenerate are useless because God does not hear them.


Packer should have stopped at "look to Christ". Justification and sanctification are badly confused.

But if all this is done, don't they have a new heart already? I agree with what Packer says here except fot the "ask Him to give you a new heart" part.


But by this point they're born again, if they are truly seeking Christ.


I very much agree with this part, except for the phrase "which you desired." Before they were given a new heart, they' didn't desire it, right?

Why wouldn’t you “ask Him to give you a new heart, working in you true repentance and firm faith” and then wait for the answer applying the means of grace ....? A general principle is laid out in Jonah 3:9 which unregenerate men said, "Who knoweth whether God will not turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?" While this is not speaking of salvation it is none the less a general principle that we should and even the unregenerate should apply in prayer--we should use the means God has supplied, etc. ... who knows when or if God will call one? He knows, but we don't, thus ... Please read below.

Not necessarily. One cannot “truly” (and maybe a better word is “effectually”) seek Christ until they are converted, however they can use the means of grace in their own depraved natures (though not effectually) and still be “seeking” (not effectually, but none the less seeking). Man does have a will which has genuine desires.

No, they can desire—just not desire for the right reason(s) or effectually. A person can desire something and it not be an effectual desiring.

Remember the visible/invisible church distinction when reading these passages.

As you can see there is a very thin line to walk when discussing this issue as (1) you can violate the grace and mercy of God in salvation, and (2) you can violate the genuine will that man does have.

Here you state, “The people of Nineveh were regenerated through the word preached by Jonah, "the means", and God heard their prayers (Jonah 3). So this was not a case of the unregenerate seeking God through prayer,” but here you state, “I don't know how many regenerate were in Nineveh but Sodom was destroyed because 10 righteous could not be found. The prayers of the unregenerate are useless because God does not hear them.”

Now which is it are they ALL regenerate or not? If they were ALL regenerate prove it from the text of Scripture, if not, then your thesis is not defendable from the book of Jonah for unregenerate people were fasting/praying and God did not destroy the city! BTW what do you do with such passages as 1 Kings 21:17-29?

If we accept your thesis on the meaning of "people", then we must believe that all the people, without exception, believed that God would destroy Nineveh.

Do you believe that God actually heard the prayers of all the unregenerate people of Nineveh? Or, did God spare Niveveh, as He did Ahab, purely due to outward acts of humiliation and that not a single person in that city was actually regenerate?

Did Edwards preach to the unregenerate that they should seek God in order to obtain earthly rewards and lessor degrees of punishment on earth and in hell? If so, could you provide a sample?

Speratus, first you didn’t answer my question. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/spin.gif" alt="" />

Second you stated, “The prayers of the unregenerate are useless because God does not hear them” and now follow it up with;

Instead of opinion let us see what the Word of God says about God and His capability. However, first, what about dear ‘ol Ahab? Was Ahab ever converted? He did nothing to repudiate Jezebel or to reduce her evil influence in the kingdom. He took no action to restore Naboth’s vineyard to his heirs or next of kin. He did not break with his idols and when he and Jehoshaphat, king of Judah, decided to go to war against the Syrians, Ahab consulted with four hundred false prophets (1 Kings 22:6). Ahab did not express true repentance and salvation, rather his actions (prayer, etc) were all induced by fear of judgment—not by true sorrow for sin. Ahab knew Elijah extremely well and understood that whatever Elijah said would most certainly come true, and thus he was distraught because God’s judgment was hanging over him and he could not escape it. But, yet "a" prayer of his was answered <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Ponder.gif" alt="" />

So yes, God is not deaf and hears all! Don’t you believe in a sovereign God that “bringeth the counsel of the nations to nought” and that “maketh the thoughts of the peoples to be of no effect” (Psa 33:10)? Is your God the One that said, “See now that I, even I, am he, And there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; And there is none that can deliver out of my hand” (Deut 32:39)? Do you not believe in an all powerful God that though there “are many devices in a man's heart” it is “the counsel of Jehovah, that shall stand” (Prov 19:21)? “Who hath made man's mouth? Or who maketh a man dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind?” Is it not Jehovah? (Exod 4:11). Do you serve a God in which “all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” (Dan 4:35). Since, “our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever he pleased” (Psa 115:3) can He not also get the unregenerate to pray according to His will to accomplish His purposes in His time? Job answers, “I know that thou canst do all things, And that no purpose of thine can be restrained” (Job 42:2). Since, God can get the mouth of an ass to speak can He not get the unregenerate to pray, to change their minds, to …? Is it not God who in the end time will “put in their hearts to do his mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God should be accomplished” (Rev 17:17)?

Will not sinners do God’s decretive will? Joseph thinks so saying, “And as for you, ye meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive (Gen 50:21)! God's sovereign will ordains that even a sinful act comes to pass. Edwards says;

Then he refers to Acts 4:27-28, "for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass." Edwards ponders that someone might say that only the sufferings of Christ were planned by God, not the sins against him, to which he responds;

Proverbs 20:24 says, “A man's goings are of Jehovah; How then can man understand his way?” Oh, “there are many devices in a man's heart; But the counsel of Jehovah, that shall stand” (Prov 19:21). Have you not heard, that “The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will” (Prov 21:1) or as Jeremiah resounds, “O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps” (Jer 10:23). Therefore I conclude with Jonathan Edwards, "God decrees all things, even all sins," though God is not the author of sin. Or, as Paul says in Ephesians 1:11, "He works all things after the counsel of His will." If He can do this, He can get the unregenerate to pray-as proved in Ahab's case and even in Nineveh's!

One last time O Speratus, can you make a case from the Scripture, or will you just stand by your conflicting statements?

When Edwards, I, or any other preacher of God’s Word preaches he preaches to see people seek God “rightly.” However, since God is sovereign and directs all the affairs of heaven, earth, and of man's soul some of the seed accomplishes different things. It all depends on God’s decretive will. Edwards said;

Tell us Speartus, if a man stops raping women because he "now," after hearing the word of God preached, believes it is wrong, but is still not converted, did something positive still happen?

What about Psalm 66:18?

Isn't Psa 66:18 a great verse for believers? And yes, without God's intervention above and beyond the sinful heart He will not hear. However, we cannot remove God's control (sovereignty) from any issue. He can and as demonstrated several times in Scripture does move upon the sinful heart to accomplish His purpose. There can be a difference in "my prayer" (which He would not answer, because of ...) and "His prayer" (which He does answer in-spite of ...) put within me. “The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will” (Prov 21:1).

First, what about CONTEXT?

Psalms 66:16-20 (ASV) "Come, and hear, all ye that fear God, And I will declare what he hath done for my soul. I cried unto him with my mouth, And he was extolled with my tongue. If I regard iniquity in my heart, The Lord will not hear: But verily God hath heard; He hath attended to the voice of my prayer. Blessed be God, Who hath not turned away my prayer, Nor his lovingkindness from me."

First of all, it is important to see that David is addressing his remarks to BELIEVERS "all ye that fear God". Secondly, we should understand that David is speaking from the believer's perspective and not making a declarative statement concerning a universal principle of prayer. In other words, David is saying that a believer consciously harbours sin in his heart, i.e., refuses to repent of sin, then God will not hear his prayer(s). This is similar to what Paul says in regard to the Lord's Table and those who come in an "unworthy manner", not having examined themselves and confessed their sins before the Lord. The text is teaching us that if you are willfully living in a sin(s), you cannot expect that God is going to answer your prayers because your sins are an offense to God.

If there is a text to be found that would state what you hoped this text to say I suppose one might consider this one which was spoken by the man born blind and who Jesus healed:

John 9:31 (ASV) We know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and do his will, him he heareth.

Again, I would suggest that this too should not be understood as stating that God is "hard of hearing", nor that God doesn't work His sovereign eternal counsel through the prayers of sinners. But rather, it is stating that a sinner cannot and should not expect that God will grant them their requests because they are enemies of God. In those cases where it appears that God does answer the prayers of unbelievers, such perceived fulfillment puts further culpability upon the petitioner for as Paul writes: "Romans 2:4 "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?". Thus if an unbeliever is convinced that God has answered a prayer, then that person is under more obligation to repent and turn to Christ in faith.

In His Grace,

So if God doesn't hear the prayers of believer who harbors sin in his heart, why would He hear the prayer of the unregenerate?


That is what I meant by God not hearing those prayers. I never intended to say that God is "hard at hearing."

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> Well, I'm at a loss right now as to how to explain this differently than I already have. David is giving us the perspective from the "believers" view. A believer cannot expect that God will grant his prayers if he is living in a known sin which he/she refuses to repent of. This does not mean that God will not actually grant the petition which is in accord with His eternal counsel and which He Himself put into the believer's heart to pray by the Holy Spirit. The difficulty here, I'm assuming, is that of distinguishing between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility; that issue which brings about so many problems in our thinking, especially when it comes to issues like this.

An unregenerate person is responsible to make use of all the means given to seek the Lord and be reconciled. All these things can be done in an "outward" manner, e.g., attending the house of God, singing hymns and psalms, giving alms, hearing the Word preached, reading Scripture AND prayer. None of these exercises can in any way contribute to a person's justification or reconciliation; they are still guilty before God and sit under judgment. All are done from a heart that is in a rebellious state, aka: depraved. Yet this does not relieve one of the responsibility to make use of all these means and to continue in their use until the Lord should show mercy and grant repentance unto life and faith in Christ. It is not up to us to try and guess the workings of God in these things, only that we are commanded to "seek the Lord while He may be found" and to "call upon the name of the Lord".

In His Grace,