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Rick Bates
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My God is the God of the bible. My God is all powerful and controls all things. Their god is weak and impotent. My God died for those He chose and did not waste His blood on any one else. Their god saved no-one but potentially saved everyone. My God saved those who He chose to and did not fail. My God can not be denied. Their god is soo weak that he can be ignored. My God provide salvation which is eternal. The Armenian can choose to loose his salvation. God chose me and there was nothing I could do about it. Armenians choose God. They save themselves. It makes them God!

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Welcome to the forum, and btw, it is arminian, not armenian.

Do the arminians believe in a different God? Maybe with some, but the ones that I know (who are not completely arminian, just on the one issue of accepting/rejecting)believe in the same God. They certainly are not consistent in their views of God's sovereignty.


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To assume all Arminians are heritics is an expercise in arrogance. In so assuming you are writing off some of the most Godly and powerful followers of Christ Western Civilization has known. I do not consider myself Arminian, but I recognize Godly leaders when their lives show it. I suggest you read John Wesley's biography. I would suspect a marriage of heart and mind.


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Revelation says that people will be saved from every tongue, tribe, people, and nation. So some Armenians believe in the one true and living God. Same with Bosnians, Greeks, Japanese, American, Canadian, Iraqi, etc...


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
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I agree, John.

I have met inconsistent Arminians who I have believed are truly saved. I was once one of those people.

However, consistent Arminians, in my mind, are a different matter. I have not met many consistent Arminians, but I imagine a consistent Arminian would be an Open Theist. I am one to believe that Open Theism is not Christianity.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
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I wouldn't be too hard on Arminians, I was once one myself. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hairout.gif" alt="" />

For myself, I don't believe that Arminianism is as bad as the more overarching post-modern liberalism that infects a large portion of the church today. I see a drastic autonomous nature that is stripping the church of it's biblical foundation. I believe that there are lots of Arminians out there that are simply held captive in their churches because they are never introduced to classic orthodox Christianity. They are also being led by church leaders that don't advocate Bible reading or sound adult education. So you find congregations full of ignorant but sincere Christians.

In my opinion, I believe that reformed churches should send out missionaries to their local neighborhood liberal churches. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" /> And treat them as full blown regular missionaries. They can report in and even have their own webpage updating the progress of spreading the orthodox biblical gospel in these "dark places." <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ClapHands.gif" alt="" />

But just as it is with any missionary, they would need lots of support and encouragement to be able to sustain being amid such lawless people. But in the end it would bring God such glory would it not? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" />

Y.B.I.C,

Dave. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" />


Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
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SemperReformanda said:
I have met inconsistent Arminians who I have believed are truly saved. I was once one of those people.

However, consistent Arminians, in my mind, are a different matter. I have not met many consistent Arminians, but I imagine a consistent Arminian would be an Open Theist. I am one to believe that Open Theism is not Christianity.
Sorry, but I must disagree with your definition of "consistent Arminian". It is certainly true, that if takes Arminianism to its logical conclusion, it will pass into Open Theism and terminate at Atheism (aka: Fatalism). However, there are few professing Arminians in history that would go that far. "Arminianism" is historically that set of doctrines first made popular by Jacobus Arminius, which was in reality a modified soteriology found in Roman Catholicism. Some followers of Arminius gathered together and submitted a remonstrance to the existing Protestant church(es), which ALL taught what we call today, "Calvinism". As you are very well aware, the result was the calling of a Synod wherein representatives from all the Reformed churches; not just Holland, came together to debate the proposed changes in doctrine found in the Arminians' remonstrance. After 18 months of study and deliberation, from 1618-1619, a vote was taken and it was the unanimous decision of the Synod these doctrines; five in number, were heretical, i.e., contra-Scripture. That decision was to later to be known as the infamous "Five Points of Calvinism", which answered and refuted the Remonstrants five points.

So, a "consistent Arminian" is simply one who embraces (in the heart) and defends the doctrines found in the remonstrance which are antithetical to the Reformed Churches' foundational doctrines rendered at the Synod of Dordt known as the "Five Points of Calvinism". Thus, anyone who truly holds to that system of doctrine known as Arminianism is embracing heresy and by default is not saved. For those doctrines teach a synergistic soteriology, i.e., a system of: faith + works = salvation. See my little article here: Do You REALLY Believe that Salvation is by Grace Alone?.

In His grace,


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Thanks, Pil.

I don't think I've ever met a consistent Arminian, then. I agree that consistent Arminians areb't saved.

Can you give me some examples (people, offical denominational staements, etc) that held/hold to consistent Arminianism?


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
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SemperReformanda said:
I don't think I've ever met a consistent Arminian, then. I agree that consistent Arminians areb't saved.

Can you give me some examples (people, offical denominational staements, etc) that held/hold to consistent Arminianism?
Any church or denomination outside the "Reformed" camp. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> However, please understand the most salient point in all this, in regard to my own opinion on this, which I have stated myriad times: 1) A denomination/church can be judged according to its official "statement of faith, confession, etc.". 2) Individuals may say they believe xxxxxxxx but what they profess to believe intellectually may not be consistent with what they truly hold in their heart. This can only be determined, and that not absolutely, through personal dialog. Thus I think it is prudent, if one is to make a judgment in regard to individuals to be emphatic with the "IF"... i.e., IF you truly believe that God saved you on the basis of your making a "free-will decision" for Christ (hardly a biblical teaching), e.g., in contrast to your neighbor who refuses to believe, then you have made your salvation dependent not upon God's sovereign undeserved grace, but upon your own "work of faith"!

For an excellent article on this crucial and fundamental difference, see here: There are Only Two Religions in the Whole World, by John Reisinger. A related article can be found here: Accepting Christ by I.C.Herendeen.

In His grace,


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Our Father effectually called me to Christ 39 years ago last month. At the time, I knew that I knew (self-authenticating encounter with the Living God); but, I certainly did not know an Arminian from a Calvinist...let alone the difference in doctrinal perspective. I spent much of the past 39 years in fellowship with mostly Arminian/Arminian "leaning" believers; but, eventually, God brought me to a right understanding of election and predestination and just how rich His grace truly is (although I know I have much more to learn). Like many before me, I had extreme difficulty with what appeared to be the "unfairness" of sovereign election...until I realized that Adam, our federal head, failed the fairest of tests in Eden and it is only God's wonderful mercy and grace that saves any of us from what we so justly deserve. Still, over the past 39 years of warfare between the flesh and the spirit, I have always been aware of His presence (not a 24 x 7 awareness...but a daily); He has never left me nor forsaken me. So, having walked so many miles in their shoes, I can't summarily relegate all who find themselves in Arminian circles to being condemned heretics per se.

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My God is the God of the bible. My God is all powerful and controls all things. Their god is weak and impotent. My God died for those He chose and did not waste His blood on any one else. Their god saved no-one but potentially saved everyone. My God saved those who He chose to and did not fail. My God can not be denied. Their god is soo weak that he can be ignored. My God provide salvation which is eternal. The Armenian can choose to loose his salvation. God chose me and there was nothing I could do about it. Armenians choose God. They save themselves. It makes them God!


Eeesh... hard words there, budy. Logically, if your understanding of God differens from their understanding of God, then your God, (as you understand Him) is different from their God (as they understand Him). From this perspective we all are worshiping a "different" God since its hard to find two people who would agree on every single aspect of God. ...but I think thats not what you are trying to say...

Which one of us will claim that he/she fully and correctly understands God in all of His ultimate aspects? The term "Reformed and always Reforming" implies that we never "arive" at knowing God, but are constantly seeking. As a Calvinist I belive the Bible connotes that "correct understanding" is and was never a prerequisite of predestination and thus justification. I worship the same God as Arminians do, but I just know something about Him that they dont.

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Oops! I mispoke...it was 38 years ago; not 39.


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