The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Regeneration Difference between O.T. & N.T.

I believe that salvation takes place the same way both in the Old and New testament. I am not open to debate but am open to learning, thanks.

I don't believe that being sealed by the Spirit is like sealing a document. IMO Brakel well said what to be sealed by the Spirit is. The Holy Spirit Himself is the seal. I added some verses hope their correct.

The Sealing by the Holy Spirit and what He Accomplishes Thereby




William's <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/my2cents.gif" alt="" />

Although it is true that the Holy Spirit may bring conviction directly upon a child of God in most cases it is brought about through His ministry of the Word; either being heard or read. God most often uses means to work His will among His people, which is no way diminishes the working of the Spirit. Paul emphasizes this most pointedly when he wrote that he was "not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe." Are we to believe that the words themselves have some magical potency to convert the soul? I think not, but rather it is the Spirit working with, through and in the Word that converts the soul.

In the case of David, God sent Nathan to expose his sin through which the Spirit wrought conviction. But if you read the Psalms you will see quite clearly that David was for a long time under conviction before Nathan came to him,

Psalms 31:10 (ASV) "For my life is spent with sorrow, And my years with sighing: My strength faileth because of mine iniquity, And my bones are wasted away."

Psalms 32:3-5 (ASV) "When I kept silence, my bones wasted away Through my groaning all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: My moisture was changed [as] with the drought of summer. Selah I acknowledged my sin unto thee, And mine iniquity did I not hide: I said, I will confess my transgressions unto Jehovah; And thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin."

So, we can see just from these two passages how David wrestled with his sins under the conviction and heavy hand of the Lord. And how could this be but by the work of the Spirit Who we know as it is said of Him that His first work is to "convince (convict) the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgment" (Jh 16:8). Thus His work is unchanging.

Again, there is no disagreement that the Holy Spirit in the new covenant administration was given in full measure and globally, where in the old covenant administration His work was mostly limited to the elect of Israel. And, I would not disagree about the Spirit, as William brought out, being the "seal". My concern is allowing certain actions of individuals apart from the Spirit's work, e.g., regeneration, conviction of sin, etc.

RE: Adam and Eve's fall and restoration being very short . . . I do think that it was very short indeed. God's grace was not withheld for any length of time but was bestowed upon them quickly. We are given this understanding from God's covering our first parents with the skin of a slaughtered animal; surely indicative of Christ's covering. Secondly there was God's prophetic word bifurcating the "seed of the woman" and the "seed of the serpent", indicating a people set apart by God as His own. Another example is that Abel offered an acceptable sacrifice which could only be done if he was spiritually alive, whereas his brother Cain brought an unacceptable sacrifice after his own choosing. Other examples could be offered, but those should suffice.

Peace,

Ahh, my brother Pilgrim, we do have peace and I believe unity of Spirit, but alas, not unity of thought, but be that as it may, God is Glorious, and worthy of all praise!! I love the back and forth, it stirs my heart wonderfully!!

Okay, just to keep this discussion going because it is very interesting, here is my understanding... The OT saints were not sealed with the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit did not indwell people until Pentecost. The OT saints were kept in paradise until Jesus was resurrected and then they were released from paradise and rose with Him. The Holy Spirit "came upon and at times filled the old testament saints for a specific purpose of God but were not indwelt. Until Pentecost, the Holy Spirit resided in heaven. The promised Holy Spirit was not able to come until Jesus completed the work of redemption and went to heaven. There are many scriptures that support this and I can give them if you need them. I think we all agree they were regenerated in the same way by a work of the Spirit in their heart.

We Marylanders need to stick together <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" /> Unity at all costs!! Jk Something else to think about, when were the angels confirmed in their Holiness? They too are created and regardless what may have been said about there being a trial period or anything else, it didn't happen until the resurrection of Christ. I hear people say that if Adam would have not sinned for a period of time then he would have been confirmed in Holiness, that's completely wrong. If we weren't in Christ, then we would still be under a covenant of works, same with the angels.

hisalone,

One again I am rather surprised to read about such things. Why? Because I am quite well read and never have I ever read an author which held to a view as you have stated above. Where DO you get such things? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />

The angels have no need of Christ since they are only spiritual beings. Christ came in the likeness of man to redeem MAN and not angels. There was no "trial period" nor is their redemption afforded the angelic host. What the Church has learned from Scripture is that there was a rebellion in "heaven" (the spiritual realm) among the angels, probably led by Satan (aka: Lucifer, the Devil, etc.) Consequently, they were cast out of God's presence (experientially of course since God is Omnipresent) and consigned to everlasting torment which will take place at the great White Throne Judgment. There was no "covenant of works" in regard to the angels; only mankind of which Adam was the Federal Head. This too we know is true since Christ came as the "second Adam" and is the Federal Head of the elect believers, cf. Rom 5:12-21.

Therefore, can you please supply biblical support for your view that:

1. Angels were under a covenant of works.
2. Angels were freed from a covenant of works due to the atonement of Christ.
3. There are angels which like believers are "in Christ".

In His grace,

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> From the Word of God of course!

I didn't say He came to REDEEM them

I didn't say the angels had a "trial period" I said they were not CONFIRMED in holiness. I don't believe in the trial period theory.

I'm not a federalist, if you read my "More Concerning Body and Soul post", you will see that I see creation differently. Adam was head of creation, but it isn't just a standing as the federalist view, but as the propagator of the race also. This leads into some deeper thinking about the headship of Christ too.



My use of English was misleading, because of the use of covenant, when I mentioned same as angels, I meant that they were not secured in Christ yet, they could have still rebelled against God. I'm not always clear on statements and need to be more careful, I apologize.

The Angels were responsible for their actions personally, where our fallen condition was brought about by one man Adam. (BTW,circumscion was performed on just the males as a sign for a reason, but that is off topic)<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Eeeeeek.gif" alt="" />

My reason for this stance is:
1. Eph. 1:10b that is the "summing" up of all things in Christ, things in the "heavens" and things upon the earth.

2. 1 Pet. 1:12b things into which angels long to look. The angels did not have complete knowledge of God because the Son had not yet been given. Not that this confirmed them, but it was something they were still lacking, not seeing Christ as He is. 1 Tim. 3:16 sheds a little light on that.

1 Peter 3:18-22 speaks more on the angels becoming subject to Christ.

Do you realize that the angels in heaven also had to humble themselves before Christ, submitting to His rule? This is a new thing in Heaven, God the Son has forever linked Himself to a body. This was done in order to redeem mankind, what wondrous love this is? They too, had to accept the person of Jesus Christ, not for salvation, but for confirmation in their standing before God.

These things are mysteries, but I believe to be true. Again, everything I have spoken on this newsgroup has no way detracted from God nor from the message of the Gospel. I'm just giving you a new view of things. Whether you agree or not is not important. Each one must be convinced in their own heart. This is a discussion group so I'm discussing not trying to convince.

How did the discussion of regeneration of OT and NT saints get off into angels?

Mercy- your views stated here cannot be sustained from Scripture. Since no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born again, and since no one can be born again without a work of the Spirit........there can be no difference in the way OT believers received the Spirit as far as regeneration and indwelling is concerned.

You suggest that no one was continually indwelt by the Spirit before Pentecost. The promise given concerning John the Baptist (quite apart from the remarkable inference it has concerning God's sovereignty in regeneration) doesn't suggest temporary or transient indwelling of the Spirit.

Luk 1:15 for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.
Luk 1:16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God,
Luk 1:17 and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared."


The giving of the Spirit at Pentecost was not for the purposes of regeneration but for empowerment for witness. The disciples were already regenerate and had specifically received the Spirit on a ptrevious occasion in Joh 20:21

Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."
Joh 20:22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

Since the tense is aorist imperative, it doesn't have a future meaning but is a NOW instruction.

People use Joh 7:39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

to suggest that the Spirit was only given after Christ's ascension at pentecost. However if you read John's gospel carefully over the next few chapters you will see when Jesus began to be glorified.

Hopefully there is some food for thought.