The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Lloyd-Jones and Revival

Hello all. I'm new here so maybe this has been already talked about, so pardon me if it has. I read Ronald Cooke's well written article "Tongues nonsense and Martyn Lloyd-Jones". Mr. Cooke stated that MLJ believed that the sign gifts were needed for revival to take place. I've been reading MLJ for years including his treatments of the baptism with the Holy Ghost and revival in his various preaching series. I don't recall him ever stating or even implying that the sign gifts were "needed" for a revival but rather that they were just always possible in the Christian life. I'm not sure I agree with him or not (he does marshall some credible instances from the old classic The Scott's Worthies as examples), but we should be fair and not exaggerate his view, which I think the article does. And there have been a few men of note who have taught a similar baptism, sealing or filling post conversion too(though most rejected the sign gifts) and should be considered when weighing church history. Such were Tozer, Moody, Spurgeon, Charles Simeon and the puritans John Preston and John Owen, among others. I'm not defending the Charismatic/Pentecostalism of our day (I think it is a disgrace to Christ) but just want to be fair to my friend Lloyd-Jones and Chistian history.

Hi! And welcome to The Highway Discussion Board.

For the benefit of others, the article referred to is found here: Tongues - Nonsense and Martyn Lloyd-Jones

And the exact quote from that article which you take exception to is:

The quote where Mr. Cooke alleges that Lloyd-Jones said that the sign gifts were needed in the church if revival was to take place has not been discussed here before. What has been discussed here, however, is Lloyd-Jones' non-cessationist view. The problem always comes down to what Scripture teaches and not what experience of alleged events in history have occurred. The biblical arguments from non-cessationists has always been more than weak, in my view. And the alleged experiences of others rarely has any credibility, either in the reporting of it or in trying to make a connection between it and the biblical ecstatic gifts of the Spirit.

Anyway... I am not sure what Ronald Cooke read of Lloyd-Jones where this statement was made. Or, perhaps Mr. Cooke heard Lloyd-Jones say this at a conference, in a class he attended or in a sermon or even in a personal conversation?? What I can do for you is to provide contact information where you could e-mail or write Dr. Cooke and ask him for the source of that statement.

Here ya go: Breckbill Bible College. There are two links on the left at the bottom of the navigation menu for contacting him.

Thanks Pilgrim
I will contact Mr. Cooke and speak with him about it. I agree with you about the cessationist argument and MLJ appears to have changed his view from the early 50's when he gave his "Great Doctrines of the Bibles" talks and preached about the topic in the 60's. He did believe some gifts were temporarily at the earlier time and later allowed that they were always possible. But I don't believe he ever taught they were necessary for revival or necessarily a sign of revival or the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" as he understood it. I've read or listened to all his series on the theme and think it is not a trivial point as we should differentiate between the baptism with the Spirit (witness or sealing) as he and many other Godly men taught and gifts, temporary or not. I do believe there is still this personal pentecost, or witness available to us, as did those others I mentioned, and to speak of it in the same breath as sign gifts tends to make people think of the Charismatic/Pentecostal movements and puts them off without considering it. Thanks again for the information about Mr. Cooke! Dan

And thanks for the welcome!

hbddan


I am interested in finding out where you found out this particular information. Also the context of this information.
Spurgeon and Owen particularly, because they are the two people whom I have read the most from.

Tom

Hi Tom,
Many of the most notable quotes I've found over the years came out of Lloyd-Jones commentary on Romans 8:5-17 when the doctor deals with Romans 8:15,16. I've found some others by Spurgeon from time to time, like this one from a sermon he preached on Acts 2:1-4: "Only the true Christian knows what it is to receive the Spirit, but there are only a few Christians who know what it is to be filled with it - to be filled to the brim." I believe that is true to the context of the sermon.
I guess I can copy and past a couple of other quotes I saved on my computer a while back (if its ok to do such things (I'm not too familiar with discussion boards). They refer to the witness of the Spirit.
Let me say now, before I turn from this point, that it is possible for a man to know whether God has called him or not, and he may know it too beyond a doubt. He may know it as surely as if he read it with his own eyes; nay, he may know it more surely than that, for if I read a thing with my eyes, even my eyes may deceive me, the testimony of sense may be false, but the testimony of the Spirit must be true. We have the witness of the Spirit within, bearing witness with our spirits that we are born of God. There is such a thing on earth as an infallible assurance of our election. Let a man once get that, and it will anoint his head with fresh oil, it will clothe him with the white garment of praise, and put the song of the angel into his mouth. Happy, happy man! who is fully assured of his interest in the covenant of grace, in the blood of atonement, and in the glories of heaven! Such men there are here this very day. Let them “rejoice in the Lord alway, and again I say rejoice.”
What would some of you give if you could arrive at this assurance? Mark, if you anxiously desire to know, you may know. If your heart pants to read its title clear it shall do so ere long. No man ever desired Christ in his heart with a living and longing desire, who did not find him sooner or later. If thou hast a desire, God has given it thee. If thou pantest, and criest, and groanest after Christ, even this is his gift; bless him for it. Thank him for little grace, and ask him for great grace. He has given thee hope, ask for faith; and when he gives thee faith, ask for assurance; and when thou gettest assurance, ask for full assurance; and when thou hast obtained full assurance, ask for enjoyment; and when thou hast enjoyment, ask for glory itself; and he shall surely give it thee in his own appointed season. – Spurgeon on Romans 8.30


Now sometimes the soul, because it hath somewhat remaining in it of the principle that it had in its old condition, is put to question whether it be a child of God or no, and thereupon as in a thing of the greatest importance puts in its claim with all the evidences that it hath to make good its title, the Spirit comes and bears witness in this case. An allusion it is to judicial proceedings in points of titles and evidences. The Judge being set, the person concerned lays his claim, produceth his evidences, and pleads them. His adversaries endeavoring all that in them lies to invalidate them and disannul his plea and to cast him in his claim. In the midst of the trial a Person of known and approved integrity comes into the court, and gives testimony fully and directly on the behalf of the claimer, which stops the mouths of all his adversaries and fills the man that pleaded with joy and satisfaction. So is it in this case. The soul, by the power of its own conscience is brought before the law of God. There a man puts in his plea, that he is a child of God, that he belongs to God’s family, and for this end produceth all his evidences, everything whereby faith gives him an interest in God. Satan in the meantime opposeth with all his might. Sin and law assist him. Many flaws are found in his evidences. The truth of them all is questioned and the soul hangs in suspense as to the issue. In the midst of the plea and contest the Comforter comes, and by a word of promise or otherwise overpowers the heart with a comfortable persuasion and bears down all objections that his plea is good, and that he is a child of God. When our spirits are pleading their right and title, He comes in and bears witness on our side, at the same time enabling us to put forth acts of filial obedience, kind and childlike, which is crying Abba, Father. Remember still the manner of the Spirit’s working before mentioned, that he doth it effectually, voluntarily, and freely – hence, sometimes the dispute hangs long, the case in pleading many years. The law seems sometimes to prevail, sin and Satan to rejoice, and the poor soul is filled with dread about its inheritance. Perhaps its own witness from its faith, sanctification, former experience keeps up the plea with some life and comfort, but the work is not done, the conquest is not fully obtained until the Spirit, who worketh freely and effectually, when and how He will, comes in with His testimony also, clothing His power with a word of promise, He makes all parties concerned to attend unto Him and puts an end to the controversy. Herein He gives us holy communion with Himself, the soul knows His voice when He speaks, there is something too great in it to be the effect of a created power. When the Lord Jesus Christ at one word stilled the raging of the sea and wind, all that were with Him knew that there was Divine power at hand. And when the Holy Ghost, by one word, stills the tumults and storms that are raised in the soul, giving it an immediate calm and security, it knows His divine power and rejoices in His presence. – John Owen (Communion with God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost) on Roman 8:16

Please pardon another from friend Spurgeon as such things are a wonderful to me.

I do believe that there is a supernatural way in which apart from means, the Spirit of God communicates with the spirit of man. My own little experience leads me to believe that apart from the Word of God, there are immediate dealings with the conscience and soul of man by the Holy Spirit, without any instrumentality, without even the agency of the truth. I believe that the Spirit of God sometimes comes into a mysterious and marvelous contact with the spirit of man, and that at times the Spirit speaketh in the heart of man by a voice not audible to the ear, but perfectly audible to the spirit which is the subject of it. He assures and consoles directly, by coming into immediate contact with the heart. It becomes our business then to take the Spirit’s witness through his Word, and through his works, but I would seek to have immediate, actual, undivided fellowship with the Holy Ghost, who by his divine Spirit, should work in my spirit and convince me that I am a child of God. – Spurgeon on Romans 8.16,17

Hope that helps. If you are really interested I'd get copy of MLJ's Romans commentary mentioned above where he goes into it in his characteristic depth.
Dan

I don’t mean to beat a dead horse, but I re-read Dr. Cooke’s paper several more times and feel that, while well written, it does not give a fair treatment of the subject. My reason for continuing this thread is not argue in favor of the modern Charismatic movement but simply to suggest that it is possible to go to the other extreme and end up in a dead orthodoxy. There is rich history of Christian testimony to wonderful works of God that most in reformed circles tend to ignore or at least not interest ourselves too much with. I think we should and I encourage the reader to do so by reading such books as Edwards on Revivals or Sprague on Revivals, for example. Anyway, I noticed a couple other things in Dr. Cooke’s article that it seemed to me were a bit distorted.

He stated: “Sign miracles accompanied the foundation of the church. They attested the authenticity of the writers who wrote during the time in which the foundation of the church was being laid. When these writers passed from the scene and the Word of God became the basis and authority for the entire church, then all miraculous works ceased (italics mine). There was no further need for them.”

From A.J. Gordon’s The Ministry of Healing (19c.) and The Holy Spirit in Missions I found the following:

The famous Moravian Count Zinzendorf writes as follows:
“To believe against hope is the root of the gift of miracles and I owe this testimony to our beloved Church, that apostolic powers are there manifested. We have had undeniable proofs thereof in the unequivocal discovery of things, persons, and circumstances, which could not humanly have been discovered, ‘in the healing of maladies in themselves incurable, such as cancers, consumptions when the patient was in the agonies of death, &c., all by means of prayer, or of a single word.’ ” * (Idem, p. III.)

Speaking of the year 1730, he says
“At this juncture various ‘supernatural gifts were manifested in the Church, and miraculous cures were wrought’. The brethren and sisters believed what the Saviour had said respecting the efficacy of prayer and when any object strongly interested them they used to speak to him about it, and to trust in him as capable of all good then was done unto them according to their faith. The count (Zinzendorf) rejoiced at it with all his heart, and silently praised the Saviour who thus willingly condescended to what is poor and little. In this freedom of the brethren towards our Saviour, Jesus Christ, he recognized a fruit of the Spirit, concerning which they ought on no account to make themselves uneasy, whoever it might be, but rather to respect him. At the same time he did not wish the brethren and sisters to make too much noise about these matters, and regard them as extraordinary but when, for example, a brother was cured of disease, even of the worst kind, by a single word or by some prayer, he viewed this as a very simple matter, calling to mind, ever that saying of scripture, that signs were not for those who believed, but for those who believed not.” * (Idem, pp. 405-6)

Thus we have the sentiment of the Moravians on the subject of Miracles very distinctly indicated. And the statements quite accord with their simple faith and filial confidence in the Lord, as indicated in other things.

The following furnishes a very beautiful glimpse into the actual miraculous experiences above referred to:

“Jean de Watteville had a childlike confidence in our Saviour’s promise to hear his children’s prayers. Of this he often had experience. One example we will here offer — A married sister became extremely ill at Hernnhut. The physician had given up all hopes, and her husband was plunged in grief. Watteville visited the patient, found her joyfully expecting her removal, and took his leave, after having encouraged her in this happy frame. It was at that time still the custom of unmarried brethren, on Sunday evening, to go about singing hymns before the brethren’s houses, with an instrumental accompaniment. Watteville made them sing some appropriate hymns under the window of the sick sister, at the same time praying in his heart to the Lord that he would be pleased, if be thought good, to restore her to health. He conceived a hope of this so full of sweetness and faith that he sang with confidence these lines

‘Sacred Cross, oh sacred Cross!
Where my Saviour died for me,
From my soul, redeemed from loss,
Bursts a flame of love to thee.
When I reach my dying hour
Only let them speak thy name
By its all prevailing power
Back my voice returns again.’

What was the astonishment of those who surrounded the bed of this dying sister when they saw her sit up, and join with a tone of animation in singing the last line - ‘Back my voice returns again.’
To his great amazement and delight he found her, on ascending to her chamber, quite well. She recovered perfectly, and not till thirty-five years after did he attend her earthly tabernacle to its final resting place.”

Rev. Isaac D. Colburn, for twenty years a missionary in Burmah, has at my request put the following incident in writing. It occurred in connection with his own work, and the truth of it he declares to be attested by many trustworthy eyewitnesses now living.
A company of native Christians in the district of Thongzai, British Burmah, had assembled on the banks of a pool to witness the baptism of several disciples. The surrounding rocks and hills were covered with spectators, who had gathered from the neighboring region. Near the water stood a father and his son, the first of whom had made himself conspicuous by a most bitter opposition to the gospel, and by most strenuous efforts to dissuade his heathen neighbors from becoming Christians. As the native pastor was opening the services at the pool, this opponent broke in with the most blasphemous interruptions mingled with all manner of obscene gestures and lascivious demonstrations. The preacher repeatedly remonstrated with him; but his words only stirred him to a more flagrant outburst of wickedness.
The father and son now stripped themsel,ves of their clothing and plunged naked into the water; and as the pastor was about to baptize a disciple, the old opposer caricatured the ceremony, seizing his son by the heels, dipping him several times in the water, and pronouncing over him the baptismal formula, coupling the name of the Trinity with the most horrible blasphemies, so that the services were completely stopped.
Standing on the bank of the pool among the company of Christians was a native Karen evangelist by the name of Sau Wah. He had been before his conversion a powerful chief, a noted warrior, and a much dreaded opponent of the gospel. Since he had become an humble disciple of Christ his whole soul and being were given up to persuading his countrymen to accept that Saviour whom he had once hated. With stern and commanding bearing Sau Wah now rose up, and called for silence. Then, turning to the old man in the water, he said: "0 full of all subtlety and mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" Those Christians who witnessed the scene declare that, as he spake, the Holy Spirit seemed to fall on the assembly, with awful power and impression. The disturbers, as though suddenly smitten with terror, fled from the water, and ran up the hillside. But before going many rods both fell prostrate to the earth. At the conclusion of the service the Christians lifted them up and bore them to the village. The father was found to be dead, and though the son afterwards recovered consciousness, the stroke proved fatal, and within a few months he followed his father to the grave. Who can reasonably doubt that here was a direct judgment of God upon the sin against the Holy Ghost? And can we wonder that again the record should be, "And great fear fell upon all the people"?

Again, Dr. Cooke says “As have many others, Dr. Lloyd-Jones reserves his severest attack for the passage in I Cor. 13:8-10. He argues, as have many others, that the word “perfect” refers to the perfect state, and if you say otherwise it is nonsense. It is then of interest to look at the history of the exegesis of this verse.”

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Dr. Cooke quotes Chrysotom, Lange and Vine to show that church history is on his side of interpreting the 1 Corinthians passage to mean the difference between the time before the canon of Scripture was complete and the time when it would be completed. I think it would have been more just to mention some of those in church history who supported Dr. Lloyd-Jones view of it, so as not to give the impression that it was just him and the modern Charismatics who took those verses in the sense of comparing this life to the perfect state in heaven. I just did a quick check in my small library and found that the puritan Thomas Goodwin, Charles Hodge, and Charles Spurgeon agreed with MLJ on the passage, and I assume there were others as well whom we consider “lights from the past.”

Sorry, the (italics mine) was referring to the statment "then all miraculous works ceases". empahsis on the all.

FYI, you have up to 6 hours to edit your own post/reply here. And if there is a critical issue that needs correction and/or addition, after the 6 hour period, you can contact any of the Admins/Moderators and ask if they would help in the matter.

All you need to do is click on the "Edit" button located at the bottom of your post/reply and make the necessary changes.

PS. I've added the necessary italic tags in your previous reply already.

Thanks Pilgrim, I looked for an edit button but somehow missed it!

hdbdan,

to The Highway Discussion Board. We make frequent use of the edit button ourselves so we know right where it is. Sort of like digital white out. Very handy especially when one is prone to clicking the submit button before proofreading one's post.

Glad to have you aboard.

Thanks for the welcome, Chestnutmare! I'm glad about that edit button as I have enough trouble conveying my thoughts without grammatical errors getting in the way.

I found this on another site and think it is helpful with regard to MLJ's view:
At the Welsh Minister’s Conference in June 1977 these were his (Lloyd-Jones')words:
“The trouble with the charismatic movement is that there is virtually no talk at all of the Spirit ‘coming down’. It is more something they do or receive: they talk now about ‘renewal’ not revival. The tendency of the modern movement is to lead people to seek experiences. True revivals humble men before God and emphasize the person of Christ. If all the talk is about experiences and gifts it does not conform to the classic instances of revival.”
Iain Murray also quotes a conversation he had with Dr. Lloyd-Jones:
“I was against Pentecostalism and still am. My doctrine of the baptism of the Spirit is that it gives full assurance. I have never been satisfied with any speaking in tongues that I have heard. (…) It is very unfair to put the label Pentecostal on me.”