The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum events before Christ's return

I have been doing a little research on what events must occur before the 2nd. coming of Christ and have been a bit disappointed with what I have been able to find in the Bible. Here are three "facts" that I was taught as a child and have not been able to find the supporting Bible references. If anybody can help me out with specific Bible references, I will be much appreciative.<br><br>Where does it say that the temple will be rebuilt on its original site before Christ returns?<br><br>Where does it say that we will have earthquakes that are worse than any in history before Christ returns?<br><br>Where does it say that we will have plagues worse than any in history before Christ returns?<br>

If you go to this link and select Eschatology I believe your answers concerning the teaching of Dispensational Theology (which your questions appear to have stem from--for the most part) will be answered.

Besides the link that Joe gave you,<br>here's a discussion that we had few months ago:<br> Dispensationalism<br><br>in Christ,<br>Carlos

I have checked the links suggested by both Joe and Carlos and have not found an answer to my three questions. It is true that my questions are a part of Dispensationalism, but they are a tiny part and do not seem to be covered by these general discussions.

smithca,<br><br>I found it difficult to believe that you searched through the articles in the Eschatology section on The Highway and found "nothing that answers your 3 questions." <br><br>In particular, David Engelsma has 5 chapters devoted to an exposition of Matthew 24 in his series found here: A Defense of (Reformed) Amillennialism. Perhaps you overlooked these? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Where does it say that we will have earthquakes that are worse than any in history before Christ returns?<br><br>Where does it say that we will have plagues worse than any in history before Christ returns?<br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>I guess they would appeal to Matthew 24 for this. And there should be treatment's of this on the highway. See Woodrow's Article.<br><br>As far as the temple, I've always thought that was a ridiculous idea.[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img] <br>This article below has a little bit of critique on that idea:<br>http://members.aol.com/twarren11/dan9.html<br><br>In Christ,<br>Carlos<br>

Let me describe exactly how I searched. <br>First I used your link to go to: http://www.the-highway.com/amilTOC_Engelsma.html<br>This site has references to several chapters. I went to each individual chapter and did a search for the text "plague" and "earthquake". These key words were not in any of the chapters.<br><br>I also did a quick manual scan of the chapters that refer to Matthew 24, looking for prophesies in general. <br><br>I have not found any answers yet. Tonight, I will make a careful reading of Matthew 24. <br><br>Specifically, I am looking for prophesies that can be measured in a quantitive way. These are the three that I have heard of that are quantitative, but I am not certain that my memory is truly Biblically correct. I need to start from the specific Bible reference to see what the quantitive reference is. For example, plagues can be measured quantitively several ways, that is the total number of people killed in the world, the total number sick, the ratio of people killed and those living, both in the world and in the community where the plague occurred. An example of a quantitative measurement of a plague in history is the series of Bubonic plagues in Europe that happened around 700 years ago. The quantitative measurement is that about one third of Europe was killed. I want to find out if there is a Biblical reason to compare the total number killed in these plagues to the number killed by AIDS today. I want to find out if the Biblical reference is quantitative in some way or if the quantitative references that were taught to me were added by people retelling the story.<br> <br>

did you look up woodrow's article on Matt 24? That definitely has some discussion on earthquakes and plagues. As far as "quantitative" stuff, i'm not sure where you are going to find that.<br>

The quantitative part will have to come directly from the Bible. Just knowing Matthew 24 is plenty for me to find any quantitative references in that chapter so I will carefully read it tonight.<br><br>I want to thank everybody for their help with the reference to Matthew 24. If anybody else can point me to chapters or verses in the Bible, please speak up.

smithca,<br><br>Here's the deal, as they say! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile[/img] Since we hold that the Bible is the only rule of faith and practice, it being, the inspired, infallible and inerrant written Word of the Living God, all that which the Lord has chosen to reveal to men in regard to these matters is contained therein. If you find from reading Matthew 24 and/or any other portion of Scripture that these "quantitative" elements are not to be found, then rest assured: 1) They are non-essential for what we are to know concerning those times which will precede the imminent return of the Lord Christ. 2) Those who would teach that there are such "quantitative" elements are adding to the Word of God and a stern warning is given to them for doing so. 3) To be sure, according to the Scriptures, even the occurrences which will take place immediately before the return of Christ will not be generally noticed by believers or unbelievers, for the Lord will come as a "thief in the night". 4) Lastly, believers have been forewarned of all these things and are exhorted to be always ready, doing the work of the Lord, abstaining from sin and to cast themselves upon Christ and what He has accomplished in their behalf. A glorious reception is waiting for them even now. Thus, our hope is in those things which are yet to come and unseen which transcend our ability to comprehend, they being incredibly glorious. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,

I may have pushed a hot button. If I did, let me assure you that I did not intend to. My intent from the very start was to find the actual references in the Bible and read those rather than read the learned but uninspired writings of contemporary people. I admit that I was getting a little frustrated because I repeatedly asked for the Bible and was given something else.<br><br>I am afraid that you do not understand what I mean by the term quantitative. Something is quantitative when it can be measured with a number. For example, if the Bible said that plagues will happen before Christ returns it would NOT be a quantitative reference. If the Bible said that plagues would kill one in four of the people in the world before Christ returns, it WOULD be quantitative. That is you can calculate the number that will die by dividing the population of the world by four. A quantitave reference has nothing to do with adding or substracting from the Bible, but with looking for references that can be measured. By the way, a quantitative reference has nothing to do with some "secret code" in the Bible or some other stupid numerology.<br><br>Ultimately I am trying to sort out what was added to the Bible by the teachers of my childhood.<br>

smithca,

Let me assure you that you haven't pushed any "hot buttons" that belong to me! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img] Having read your reply, let me also assure you that I understand your question(s) concerning the "quantitative" aspects of those things which will precede the coming of the Lord Christ, e.g., plagues, earthquakes, etc. Evidently, I failed to communicate what I intended to convey to you as it would appear that you missed it. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img] In short, I think you will NOT find any "quantitative" which are specific other than general references such as:

Matthew 24:21 (KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I tried to point out that specific "quantitative" parameters were not to be found in the Scriptures for several reasons. Surely, with all the "self-appointed prophets" roaming around with their predictions concerning the return of Christ who mangle and twist the Scriptures to their own destruction, having used what has been revealed to fabricate their own inventions. Can you even imagine what it would be like if there were specific numbers, etc., given? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img] There would be manifold more of these "prophets" roaming around with their intricately woven "codes" which would all show how we are now living in that last hour before the return of Christ. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/ohno.gif" alt="ohno" title="ohno[/img]

Again.... the return of Christ will be "like a thief in the night" and "ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." It is clear to me at least, that God has chosen not to include anything that specific concerning the return of the Son. However, it would appear that it would be beneficial for you to search the Scriptures and see if these things be true. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]



In His Grace,

Smithca,<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Where does it say that the temple will be rebuilt on its original site before Christ returns?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>The above question does indeed stem from a dispensational interpretation, but if I am not mistaken, dispensationalists believe in a rapture (Christ coming for his own) of the church prior to the temple being rebuilt, or at least at or near the same time, followed by the tribulation period. I am with you in that I do not see any scriptural support for it.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Where does it say that we will have earthquakes that are worse than any in history before Christ returns?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Famines and earthquakes are warnings. As you read the book of Revelation, in chapter 6 you read about the seven seals, and with the opening of the 6th seal you read there was a great earthquake. With the opening of the 7th seal, you find that there is an increase in intensity where there are noises, thunders, lightenings, and an earthquake. Then as we move on in the book of Revelation to chapter eleven and the sounding of the 7th trumpet, there were lightenings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. In chapter 16 with the 7th bowl of wrath there were thunderings and lightenings; [color:red]and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on earth.</font color=red><br>An Amil viepoint sees all these things mentioned in the book of Revelation as occuring during the time between Christs first coming and when He comes again at the consumation of all things. If you want to listen to some audio sermons on the topics if eschatology and the book of Revelation from an Amilennial point of view go here<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Where does it say that we will have plagues worse than any in history before Christ returns?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>See question 2. You will find the same increase in intensity of plagues as you read through Revelation.

Smithca, I have Woodrows book which helps regarding the Second Coming, Matthew 24 , the 70 weeks and the Antichrist. If you would like it, let me know and I"ll post it freely to you.<br><br>howard

Last night, I carefully read Matthew 24. I found one quantitative prophecy; that is Matthew 24:21. It says that there will be greater tribulations than have happened before for the history of the world. Of course the problem here is that tribulations are subjective by nature. In Chile a tribulation could be living under the rule of Pinochet and having thousands of people kidnapped and tortured. In the U.S.A, the typical American may think that the worst tribulation is when the price of gas goes over $2 a gallon. So it would be very difficult to measure the tribulations through the history of the world and compare them to the tribulations that the alarmists talk about happening today.<br><br>Ultimately, I have not been able to find any Biblical references to any of the three, that is:<br><br>Rebuilding the temple on the original spot.<br>Earthquakes greater than all of history.<br>Plagues worse than in all of history.<br><br>I must tentatively take the position that the Bible does not say any of these three things, even though there seems to be a commonly held opinion that the Bible does say these things. If anybody can tell me of a Bible reference that says otherwise, please do so.<br>