The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum What is sin???

Heh, Pilgrim, I was about post "Great minds think alike"

But considering the context, I'll just say, "Depraved minds that seeketh not after God, but are saved only by His loving-kindness, think alike"

[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]

Chris

I've been wanting to reply here for some time, but have just been busy with class starting up again and all and just have not had time. That and I am in a good discussion on the biblemaster.com message board on limites atonement, election, and such like things as these. Anyway...

Sin is disobeying God and what He has commanded. For the unsaved, that means disbelief in the only begotten Son of God, for which unbelief they are condemned already (John 3:18). For the CHristian, that means disobeying God's commands. In saying this I am speaking ov individual sinS (plural). As in bad actions.

Maybe I have just said that which has already been said, if so, neat noogies. If not, than I have been used to add something to this discussion. And even if it has all already been said, I pray God still usues my words for His glory!

So tell me what bad actions you are talking about?
Giving 20 dollars in the donation plate when you have 30?
Drinking 1,2, or 3 glasses of wine?
Passing up 1, 2, or three homeless people before stopping to help?
Over eating till your stuffed when people are starving?

My point is....don't you think you are doing bad actions all the time...but that God might not be focused on that as much as He is accepting His LOVE and sharing it back.

Yes, that is the verse I was talking about...thank you.

I am constantly reminded how we are SO unable to meet up to God's righteousness/standards...BUT he sent Jesus so that our sins would be forgiven. I think it's all about Love in all aspects.

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[color:"blue"]So tell me what bad actions you are talking about?
Giving 20 dollars in the donation plate when you have 30?

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Would giving $29 be considered sin if you had $30? how about $28, $27? Are we actually required to put everything we have into a collection plate? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/scratch.gif" alt="scratch" title="scratch[/img]

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[color:"blue"]Drinking 1,2, or 3 glasses of wine?

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How about if one drinks a 1/2 glass? or simply takes a sip of wine? In fact, is drinking wine sinful at all?

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[color:"blue"]Passing up 1, 2, or three homeless people before stopping to help?

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Is written in the law of God that all who profess to be Christians must stop to help a homeless individual? Is it not true that there are "homeless" individuals and also "really homeless" individuals? Where does being a good steward fit in here?

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[color:"blue"]Over eating till your stuffed when people are starving?

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Hmm, then would it be sin to over eat until you are stuffed if there were no starving people? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img]

Perhaps these questions were rhetorical in nature, but nonetheless, they do expose a form of legalism and Pietism which is also a sin. We must be so careful not to "Pharaisize" the law of God and forget about its spiritual nature. Externalizing sin actually diminishes and clouds the reality of what sin actually is and where it originates; in the heart. This is a constant danger and one which American Fundamentalists have developed into cult-like proportions over the past 100 years. Would not those who are prone to add to the law of God heed the words of the apostle Peter when he said:

Acts 15:5-11 (ASV) "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider of this matter. And when there had been much questioning, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Brethren, ye know that a good while ago God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. [color:blue]Now therefore why make ye trial of God, that ye should put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they."

Peter never denounced the moral law of God, nor did he diminish the depth of it, nor the obligation of all men who profess Christ to submit to it as a way of life, they having been saved from its curse. But Peter was adamant about not adding to the law of God with man-made rules and regulations and then casting judgment upon those who broke those rules or refused to bow to them.

The Lord Jesus didn't heal everyone nor even help everyone He met. The Lord Christ surely drank wine on a regular basis. He wasn't even an active member of "Habitat for Humanity", even though He was allegedly a carpenter by trade. The Lord Jesus, like His Father was discriminatory and bypassed many who could have used a helping hand. Although we are not given such immutable divine wisdom nor power, we are to be good stewards with those things with which God has blessed us with for His own glory.

In His Grace,

Pilgrim,<br>Wow, I appreciated that verse in Acts A lot!! I don't ever remember reading that. It shows how God is not interested in the rules/law...but the heart. <br><br>I know I was being silly with all of my examples, but I feel like people make God out to be a people hater instead of the most Loving God who exists and saves His children from wrath.<br><br>How would you simply answer someone who says that if you continue in sin, you won't go to heaven? I want to say...then No body will be there because our righteousness is as filthy rags.<br><br>

<blockquote>[color:blue]What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?</font color=blue> Romans 6:1-2 (ESV)</blockquote>I would say to them that it is true...that if we continue in sin, we will go to hell. As the Bible says, </blockquote>[color:blue]No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.</font color=blue> 1 John 3:6 (ESV)</blockquote>And then I would say that the only people who will go on sinning are those who are not of God. But once Christ has come into one of His elect's hearts and changed them and made them new, that they are free from the bondage of sin and therefore saved....<br><br>I hope that is worded right...someone correct me if it's not

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It shows how God is not interested in the rules/law...but the heart.

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Oh, but indeed God IS interested in the "rules/law" because they are what define what holiness and righteousness is. For it is by the law that all men shall be judged. The law is an expression, of God's holy nature and thus all who fail to conform themselves perfectly to that law are subject to the penalty for transgressing it or failing to conform to it. Let me throw something at you which you may not have considered before. ALL men (yes, women and children too ) will be either saved or damned by the perfect keeping of the law. For the reprobate, who are incapable of doing anything holy, in the eyes of God, they will be judged accordingly. For the elect, they are saved by the perfect keeping of the law, by proxy; i.e., Christ as their substitute is the perfect law-keeper and His active obedience is imputed to them and they are thus judged as righteous. Thus as Luther coined it with the phrase: simul iustus et peccator (At the same time [simultaneously] just [deemed righteous] and sinner [law-breaker]).

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How would you simply answer someone who says that if you continue in sin, you won't go to heaven?

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We need to keep the biblical perspective and teaching here to properly understand the indisputable answer, which is that this is a true statement. Those who live a life of sin will not be saved.

1 John 1:5-7 (ASV) And this is the message which we have heard from him and announce unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

A superficial reading might result in one concluding that the apostle John is teaching something in contradiction to the doctrine of "Sola Fide" (justification by faith alone), which the apostle Paul goes to great lengths to set forth in many places and myriad ways. However, this is obviously not the case. So, what is John saying here? Well, what he is teaching is essentially that which Paul wrote, for example, in Romans chapter 6. In summary, both are teaching that one who is justified will be sanctified. Put another way, one who has had Christ's righteousness imputed TO him will live a life that exhibits that regeneration which conforms him to that imputed righteousness.

However, we also know that this process of sanctification, where an individual is actually transformed from within and the fruit thereof is displayed without, is but only partial in one's lifetime. There is still that remnant of the sin nature which resides within all believers and which wars against the new man in Christ. There is no doubt in my mind, that one of the reasons that God has designed the salvation of His chosen ones is so that they will always rest in Christ and not their own works. Since sin permeates our every thought, word and deed, there is no basis for self-reliance or boasting, either before God or to other men. For we are saved by grace and grace ALONE, in Christ ALONE, through faith ALONE. A major difference between one who has been made alive by the Spirit of God and one who has not is that when the natural man sins, he may feel remorse for the hurt, damage or embarrassment caused, or the pain experienced by the punishment exacted upon him/her for their sinful/criminal act. The child of God, first and foremost feels shame and guilt for having offended God by transgressing His Holy law and for exhibiting an attitude of ungratefulness for that great salvation bestowed upon him/her. This leads the believer to pains of the heart which leads to genuine evangelical repentance. The man of faith who sins against God eventually casts himself down before the foot of the cross and pleads the blood of Christ, knowing that he can never make amends for even the smallest of transgressions.

1 John 1:8-9 (ASV) "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

And so, there is an initial repentance when we are first convicted of the Spirit for our sins but also for our sinfulness. And, there is a repentance which is continually done throughout one's life due to a growing in grace whereby the believer becomes more and more cognizant of his/her own sinfulness and the need to be continually cleansed by the blood of Christ.

So yes, one who lives a life of habitual sin without experiencing a guilt of the heart and repents before the Lord, pleading the merits of Christ will surely not find entrance into heaven. Salvation is NOT dependent upon one's keeping the law, for by the deeds of the law no one will be saved. (Rom 3:20, 28) However, if one IS saved, then they will strive to conform their lives to the law and to keep their hearts pure before God.

In His Grace,

Okay, so this is what gets me. I am saved/elect because I believe so much that I am a sinner saved only by God's grace. But, recently I've been going through a time where I don't feel as close to God. I am not drinking or smoking, but I am more self centered and watching shows on TV like Bachelor which I know is not pleasing to God at times and yet I enjoy them because I love that kind of thing. Am I not elect, am I elect but choosing to sin? Or, am I not sinning.

Pilgrim,
that was so beautifully said. I am amazed at how you are able to write so much and make so much sense. Maybe the Lord guided me to this message board not for my dad....but for me.

Should I question my salvation at all if I haven't felt close to God for months? I don't go to church, haven't been in the Bible much, and watching more TV. God's voice seems very quiet. And then when my dad said that about 1st John, I felt his judgment and reminded him that we are all sinners saved by God's grace.

But, why do I feel like a backslider then if I am not as closed to God as I was when I first learned about his Grace. Do you ever go through dry times?

Thank you so much, this is fellowship I haven't had in quite some time and I wasn't even planning on it...God must be drawing my heart.

So are you saying that once the elect are saved they are sinless? Why did Paul say I do the things I know I shouldn't

It's always more productive to spend our limited time focusing upon the beam that is our own eye rather than the speck that is in our brother's (father's) eye. Personally, I would be quite concerned if you weren't having some doubts. But again, I cannot stress enough that one is not a Christian because one does certain things, e.g., go to church, reads their Bible, help the poor, etc., although a true Christian will do these things. At the same time one is not fallen from saving grace because certain things are done which are sinful, improper or unbecoming to one who professes Christ. However, one has no warrant to assume they are saved if their life is full of sin, rebellion, without spiritual hunger both for God and for His word, lacking in fellowship with the saints and the Lord in prayer. Put simply, there is no check list one can go down and therewith conclude if salvation is theirs. But these things surely are indicators of one's spiritual health. It could indicate that one has not been truly regenerated and is owned by Christ. But it could also indicate that one has backslidden and is being tested by God for the purpose of purging some sin(s) through trials. King David, the "apple of God's eye" surely is recorded as being a godly man. Yet, he fell into gross sins and tried to hide them for a long period of time. Yet, even in that dark period of David's life, his conscience testified against him and he was sore vexed in his spirit. Outwardly, he probably appeared "normal" to those around him. But inwardly, he was deeply unsettled and full of guilt.

And so, if you are conscious of the fact that you are not living as you should be; as one who professes faith in Christ, which you surely have done here, AND there is turmoil in your heart because you know deep within your heart that you are not right with God, this is a positive sign. At this point, the best advice I could give to you is to cast aside the "feelings" and begin to DO that which is right. For example, even though you have little or no desire at this point to open your Bible and read it, do so. Go before the Lord and confess your lack of desire and plead on Christ to send forth His Spirit to move you to obedience. Speak openly with God and confess to Him all these things and ask for strength to put off those things which you know are not pleasing before Him and to be able to do those things which are. Remember, we receive not because we ask not and/or aright. As you begin to ACT upon the knowledge you have of what is pure, right and good, God will draw near to you as you seek to draw near to Him and the feelings you once had will surely return. We live by FAITH and not sight (feelings). Just imagine how few people would get up and go to work if they acted on their feelings! The Christian life is expressed in the "obedience of faith" (Rom 16:26)

I do think that Paul's prayers for the saints at Colossae are most appropriate here and I hope that you will meditate on them and that they seep into the very recesses of your heart. Read Paul's words slowly and deliberately, praying for understanding and that they may move your soul to new joy in Christ.In His Grace,

Boy Pilgrim. You sure said that a heap better than I could [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img]<br><br>But didn't Paul top us both in his inspired letter to the Colossians!<br><br>Amen and praise the Lord.<br><br>Stucco

Pilgrim,<br>Again, thank you so much. I totally understood what you were saying. <br><br>And, I think God is working on those things that are not pleasing to Him, but reminding me that it is not by works that I am saved.<br><br>God Bless you for all of your thought and answers you've given me.<br><br>Are you a pastor?<br><br>

I guess what I meant by my post was that a Christian may sin, but they won't go on sinning and never once not feel some kind of remorse. If someone keeps on sinning, and never once has any kind of thought or whatever that they are doing something wrong, than it is most likely because they are not saved...And there seems to be something missing to this response, but I can't figure out what [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/flatcat.gif" alt="flatcat" title="flatcat[/img]