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chestnutmare #53302 Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:26 PM
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Just amazed but howwell that fits into the bible, as there is a distinctive linkage from one point to another, and that if one accepted those truths, would have to accept salvation is totally of the Lord...

JesusFan #53306 Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JesusFan
I do understand your point, and would like to say that there are some Calvinists are more "tolerant" in regards to this very issoe...
Help me out here if you would, please? Are you attempting to remove the inherent antithesis between those who believe that those who truly believe that Arminianism [hard to find today] and semi-Pelagianism are unregenerate and those who believe that they are regenerate? Put another way, the two views are compatible; equally acceptable? And, that the difference between the two views is simply a very minor issue?

To repeat myself once again...... "Tolerant Calvinism" is a plague upon the Church and one which, humanly speaking, has sent countless loss souls on their way to hell by assuring them that they are truly saved and only need proper teaching. Salvation does not rest upon an intellectual knowledge of the truth. But true Holy Spirit wrought salvation in Christ comes ONLY through a knowledge of the truth. Since you openly confess to be a Tolerant Calvinist and thus really believe that Arminians and semi-Pelagians (Roman Catholicism, fyi is based upon semi-Pelagianism as is NPP and Federal Vision) and haven't had the advantage of a proper education that Calvinists have, then why bother them with theological issues? Since, according to you and all Tolerant Calvinists, one can be saved by believing a false gospel, a false Jesus, a false Spirit and worship a different God, then what difference does it really make if one believes in semi-Pelagianism or Calvinism? Why don't you grab a handful of "The Four Spiritual Laws" from CCC and pass them out to everyone and tell them if they say the prayer on the back of the card, they will be saved? Countless thousands, perhaps millions have done just that or gone forward at a Billy Graham Crusade, or raised their hand at a revival meeting and were told they were saved. These are those who populate the majority of evangelical churches today. And, according to your Tolerant Calvinism they are all to be received as true brothers and sisters in Christ.

I find Tolerant Calvinism to be repugnant at best and woefully inconsistent for anyone to claim to embrace historic, biblical Calvinism. This is like trying to mix oil and water. But the worst part about Tolerant Calvinism as I have written above, it puts the souls of countless lost individuals at risk by giving them a false assurance when they are in fact under the just wrath of God and destined to eternal hell unless God should show them mercy and through regeneration of the Spirit, bring true conviction upon them and draw them infallibly with a saving faith to the Lord Christ.

This is what the apostle Paul wrote concerning those who teach falsehood, and by way of implication, those who accept and believe it:

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2 Timothy 3:1-8 (ASV) "But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, railers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, implacable, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, traitors, headstrong, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power therefore. From these also turn away. For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women laden with sins, led away by divers lusts, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. And even as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also withstand the truth. Men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith."
These are those who Tolerant Calvinists call brothers and sisters in the faith? drop


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Pilgrim #53323 Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:36 PM
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I am just saying that my understanding would be that the Lord saves His own Elect out from even churches teaching bad theology, as he saved them by the Calvinistic views, and requires them to move to get into teaching that aligns with the Bible now, is that wrong?

JesusFan #53324 Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JesusFan
I am just saying that my understanding would be that the Lord saves His own Elect out from even churches teaching bad theology, as he saved them by the Calvinistic views, and requires them to move to get into teaching that aligns with the Bible now, is that wrong?
I understand your view. And I'm saying I totally disagree for myriad reasons which I have enumerated several times already. That God saves the elect out of __________fill in the blank is certainly true for ALL are saved OUT OF sin. The antithesis between our views is that Scripture teaches that the elect are called from darkness to light by THE Gospel and NOT without it. Your view removes the necessity of a sinner hearing THE Gospel, through which the Spirit works regeneration and efficacious grace. You and others can speculate that God can save anyone in whatever means He chooses. However, Scripture doesn't even hint at what God might be able to do, but rather how He actually works. Can you provide even one example where a sinner has been genuinely saved through a false gospel, which teaches a false god, a false jesus, a false spirit? God's elect are ALWAYS called through the TRUE Gospel. Paul pronounces ANATHEMA upon all who preach/teach a false gospel, a gospel which he and all the apostles did not preach/teach. The issue is Justification and not Sanctification where all who are called to repentance and faith grow in the knowledge of God.

I ask again... IF as you and all Tolerant Calvinist assert, that salvation can and does come from someone hearing the lies of Satan in false churches then why bother with what the true Gospel is? Further, since these false churches and their false gospel have great success, according to their claims, wouldn't it be better to forget theology altogether and use whatever "works", and then try to convince these "converts" that what they believe is totally false and teach them the doctrines of grace? The modern church is filled with false conversions and a false sense of assurance that all is made right with God. An unregenerate sinner can certainly recite the truth and articulate it marvelously yet it is nothing more than head knowledge. A genuinely converted sinner without even knowing what Calvinism is will express the essence of Calvinism from the heart. For example, a truly regenerate Christian will describe himself/herself as loathesome, a wretch, without any goodness or righteousness before God. This revealed self-assessment is accompanied by painful conviction. This is how Paul describes himself in several places in Scripture. The same can be said of all the "Five Points" as well, plus much more, from Genesis to Revelation by the true sheep of Christ. It is indeed a matter of teaching, but not the teaching of men, but by the teaching of the Holy Spirit through the hearing of the TRUE Gospel. God does not circumvent His inspired, inerrant, infallible, written Word. (Rom 10:14-21).


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Pilgrim #53336 Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:32 AM
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I do not view those not support Calvinism as not being in the body of Christ, but would view them as those who are still somewhat ignorant as to what the Bible really teaches regarding salvation, as many of them still want to try to uphold what their group teaches even though disagrees with the bible..

As I was lost sinner, the Lord witnessed to me thruthe scriptures and some saved Baptists, God saved me, then attended Assemblies of God, to a Free Church, and now member in a solid Baptist church,and now HE has openned my eyes to the truth of salvation as per Calvinism...

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