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#53909 Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:22 AM
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Tom Offline OP
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I have been discussing the issue of Paedocommunion with someone who holds to the teaching

When I used 1 Cor. 11:27-28 to show that infants can not examine themselves. the following is the answer I received back. Any thoughts?

Quote
The description of unworthy partaking in v. 27. Since what was unworthy in the prior verse was eating and drinking in a dis-unified manner, v. 28 is therefore prescribing a manner of eating and drinking that would reflect ecclesial unity. That is, “Let a person examine/prove himself” is not a prerequisite action that occurs prior to partaking of the Supper, but rather is the manner in which the Supper is partaken of.

Since v. 28 is the contrast to the dis-unified partaking of v. 27, this suggests that the first clause of v. 28 is not an end in itself, but is rather a means to the end of ecclesial unity as the sacrament is being partaken of.

In context, the “examining” that one should do is to see if he is being schismatic in his treatment of others in the body, particularly as he is partaking of the sacrament. Whether or not children can perform this type of examination independently of parental oversight does not seem to be germane to Paul’s concerns here. Paul’s concern in this letter is that “we
who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf” (10:17) and that “when you come together to eat, wait for each other” (11:33). If parents shepherd their children to respect the unity of the church body during the sacrament, this would seem to cohere with the spirit of Paul’s argument. To me, the supposition that examine here means that
each partaker must independently introspect to see if they have a correct and mature understanding of the sacramental symbolism is foreign to the context and the thrust of the discourse.

He added that this understanding of the text is supported by theologians like Gordon Fee.

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:27 AM.
Tom #53911 Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:32 AM
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1. Gordon Fee is most definitely not a reliable source. rolleyes2

2. There have been several discussions here on this board on the subject of Paedocommunion, in which you have participated. Use the "Search" feature. grin

3. There is an excellent article on The Highway, Paedocommunion: A Biblical Examination. Again, use the "Search" feature on the main website.

4. Cornelis P. Venema has written an excellent book on this subject, Children at the Lord's Table? Assessing the Case for Paedocommunion and shows that there is no biblical support for paedocommunion.

Quote
Product Description

A growing trend among Reformed churches is the practice of admitting young children to the Lord’s Supper. In Children at the Lord’s Table?, Cornelis P. Venema provides an insightful analysis of the theoretical arguments used by advocates of this recent trend. After clarifying terms and explaining arguments often made in favor of paedocommunion, he considers the history of the church’s confessions, teaching, and practice regarding the proper recipients of the Lord’s Supper. Presenting a historical, exegetical, and systematic treatment of the subject, Venema demonstrates the validity and value of having covenant children partake of first communion subsequent to their personal profession of faith. This is an invaluable resource for every pastor within the Reformed tradition.

A search on Google or your favorite search engine will show several places where this book may be purchased. BigThumbUp


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Tom #53914 Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:15 AM
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This would vary from church to church, but in mine, the children can partake IF they have evidence of having been born again, as open to all who have been saved, and also who are not haboring and "playing around" with known sin....

Tom #53916 Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:27 AM
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Pilgrim
I have read articles on the subject on the Highway and elsewhere.
I was just hoping to get some dialogue on his particular points.

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:27 AM.
Tom #53918 Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom
Pilgrim
I have read articles on the subject on the Highway and elsewhere.
I was just hoping to get some dialogue on his particular points.
[Linked Image] the article by Schwertley does address the "particular point" re: examining oneself. Did you somehow miss that section? scratchchin Here is the entire quote from the article so that you and others can benefit from Schwertley's exegetically sound response to this matter which he mentions in the beginning of the article:

Quote
The fact that Lord’s supper is a proclamation of Jesus’ sacrificial death leads Paul to warn the Corinthians of the necessity of self-examination (see 1 Corinthians 11:26-29). “Let a man examine himself” (1 Cor. 11:28). The term “examination” denotes a moral exercise that presupposes a certain level of mental maturity that excludes babies and toddlers. There is to be due preparation before partaking of the elements. In the immediate context, this examination requires discernment or taking proper cognizance of the Lord’s body (1 Cor. 11:29). The narrow and broad contexts of this passage indicate that this self-examination extends to three different interrelated areas. First, the examination extends to our treatment of Christ’s body, the church. This point is plain from the immediate context, which precipitated Paul’s digression upon the holy supper. Some Corinthians had been guilty of treating poor believers as second-class citizens at the agape feasts that at the time were still held in conjunction with communion. (The Corinthians were probably guilty of following the ancient Greek custom of having different places to sit in the house, along with different quantities and qualities of food as a result of one’s social and economic status. In other words, the rich were eating like gluttons while the poor were going hungry.) Scripture indicates that this ethical examination extends to other areas such as reconciliation with a brother (Mt. 5:23-24) and a refusal to repent of immorality (e.g., 1 Cor. 5:1, 5, 8, 9, 11, 13). Self-examination requires knowledge of God’s ethical requirements as well as faith in God’s word, otherwise this examination would be subjective and legalistic. This examination, however, is not to be a morbid introspectionism or an expectation of sinless perfection, for every Christian knows that it is Christ alone and his merits that render him worthy to come to communion.

Second, this examination involves “discerning the Lord’s body” (1 Cor. 11:29) which in context refers to a proper consideration of the meaning and implication of the salvation purchased by Christ. This point is obvious from Paul’s quotation of the original words of institution from Luke 22:19 where the Lord’s broken body is set before our eyes as the atonement for our sins. Remembering Christ’s passion and meditating on how Jesus delivered us from the guilt, penalty and power of sin are connected not only to the sanctifying nature of the ordinance but also to the dire warnings connected to the abuse of the sacrament. Mistreating Christ’s body, the church, by unloving behavior toward the brethren, is an implicit denial of what the supper points to. A proper discernment of Christ’s body (that is, his person and work) leads to a proper discernment of his body, the church. The two are intimately connected.

Third, the context of 1 Corinthians 11:29 indicates that communion also involves a proper recognition of the elements set apart for holy use. The elements are set apart from a common to a sacred use. Therefore, it is wicked and dangerous to use them in a profane manner (e.g., getting drunk). For this reason many commentators view the conclusion of this chapter as an admonition to separate communion from the love-feast or fellowship meal.

Once again note that the admonitions associated with communion presuppose faith, understanding and recognition of biblical ethics. It is totally inappropriate to dismiss the implications of these admonitions by arguing that they only apply to adults because (as noted) the holy supper, unlike baptism, requires faith, knowledge and understanding for progressive sanctification. The attempt to parallel these ordinances doesn’t work without a complete redefinition of communion (i.e., a redefinition in an ex opere operato direction).


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JesusFan #53919 Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:54 PM
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[Linked Image] Tom was asking for comments in regard to the phrase "examine oneself", i.e., the requirement of all who partake of the Lord's Table to examine themselves.

And, as we have come to expect from you, no mention of Scripture is given to support your unbiblical practice of allowing children to attend the Lord's Supper. igiveup


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Pilgrim #53921 Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:21 PM
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I need to admit that at first I thought you addressing me, not JesusFan..

Tom

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Tom, if you look at the top of the comment, it shows who the comment is addressed to. In reply to.


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The scriptures state to us that the supper is opened foe all of those who have been saved and name jesus as Lord, cannot children do that?

JesusFan #53928 Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JesusFan
The scriptures state to us that the supper is opened foe all of those who have been saved and name jesus as Lord, cannot children do that?
Providing a credible profession of faith is but one requirement. The other is being able to discern the Lord's body through self examination (1Cor 11:27-29). Children are incapable of doing that. The Lord's Supper is a sacrament and thus Paul's strict warnings against participation by those who are not qualified to do so..


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Pilgrim #53935 Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:43 AM
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That is why we live it to their parents, as being able to spiritual discern if they would be able to really grasp what is being done here or not...

JesusFan #53938 Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by JesusFan
That is why we live it to their parents, as being able to spiritual discern if they would be able to really grasp what is being done here or not...
Please supply biblical support that parents are to discern their children's spiritual state vs. ALL who desire to partake of the Lord's supper are to profess a credible prfoession of faith. And, please supply biblical support that either parents of children can do the discernment/self-examination for them vs. ALL who partake of the Lord's Supper must do self-examination and discern the Lord's body.


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Perhaps the hang up is on the term children, as we allow for children to partake if members of the church and been water baptized, and our age for that is 12, with a credible profession of faith!

JesusFan #53944 Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JesusFan
Perhaps the hang up is on the term children, as we allow for children to partake if members of the church and been water baptized, and our age for that is 12, with a credible profession of faith!
JesusFan
You have gone way off topic here. Those who have a credible profession of faith, should not ever be concidered in the Paedo-communion discussion. For they have the ability to examine themselves.
Not to mention that you seem to support the "age of accountability" theory.

Tom

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I do not, but the church itselff does....


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