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#57081 Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:18 PM
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Tom Offline OP
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On another thread I started, Anthony mentioned
NeoCalvinism.
I am starting this thread because my question
is not in keeping with the other discussion.


Anthony mentioned NeoCalvinism and it got me a bit curious.

Lately in discussions, NeoCalvinism, have been
brought up fairly often in discussions, particularly
about how we as believers should be responding to
Government Covid mandates etc...
At first when they mentioned it, I thought
they were talking about “Theonomy”. However, I soon
found out Theonomy had nothing to do with
what they were talking about.Though it seemed to be related.

However, most of it was going over my head; so I dropped
out of the discussion.

I thought perhaps, by bringing it up here. Someone could shed some light on the subject.

Tom #57083 Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:26 PM
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First, please define "NeoCalvinism".

There are two schools which are known by that term:

1. In the 19th century, Abraham Kuyper (Dutch Calvinist) made popular what he coined as "Sphere Sovereignty" which you can search for online rather than me taking time to explain it all to you. evilgrin

2. More recently, that term is better known as "New Calvinism" whose better known advocates are Tim Keller, D.A. Carson, Ligon Duncan, John Piper and Mark Driscoll. For more information on this group which includes "The Gospel Coalition", do a search for "New Calvinists" on The Highway main page search feature.

Perhaps there is yet another group or movement that is totally different which I am not familiar with? shrug


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Tom #57084 Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:52 AM
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Yeah, I was thinking more #2 New Calvinism, which seems to have faded from the scene (or at least lost some of its distinctiveness).

Last edited by Anthony C.; Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:05 AM.
Tom #57086 Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:38 AM
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I am referring to the beliefs associated with Abraham Kuyper and sphere sovereignty.
Many seem to believe that Kuyper’s sphere sovereignty, is One Kingdom Theology.
However, the older version of Two Kingdom Theology, held by the writers of a confession such as the 1689 LBCF, would say
that TKT and Sphere Sovereignty are compatible.

I am finding the issue quite complex.

Tom

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Just a VERY brief note on, "TKT (Two Kingdom Theology) and Sphere Sovereignty are compatible".

1. Those advocating this view are most likely TKT (Merideth Kline) supporters. Don't the FV advocates claim that their view is compatible with the WCF? scratchchin

2. From my own knowledge of Kuyper's "Sphere Sovereignty", it isn't compatible with any orthodox Reformed theology. It puts "Theology" at the top of the heap of the various 'disciples', e.g., science, mathematics, chemistry, etc... BUT giving credence to a view that all other "natural sciences" have some truth which should be recognized by Theology and used to 'properly' understand Scripture has led to myriad aberrant views. Theistic Evolution, Framework Theory of origins, etc. are all the result of the melding of human philosophy and science done by pagans to one degree or another with Scripture. [Linked Image]


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Tom #57103 Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:58 AM
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From what I am reading so far about most who resist getting vaccinated and are going against the government’s mandates.
They are mostly using Kuyper’s Sphere Sovereignty in their arguments.

Most say that Kuyper Sphere Sovereignty and One Kingdom Theology are what Kuyper has in mind.
However, others who hold to TKT, say that they actually use Kuyper’s Sphere Sovereignty as a model.
Mainly because God is sovereign over all creation, but He does so in two different ways.
With our governments for example, any power out government’s do have are given by God and we ought
to obey them. Except when it means choosing between obeying God or obeying our government.
With these government mandates, they are forcing many to do just that.

Among TKT however, there seems to be a lot of differences.
For example, many Churches who hold to TKT, such as those in the Gospel Coalition (Canada and the U.S.) believe
the government is within their rights to do what they are doing.

For example, one prominent member of the Gospel Coalition said he believes John MacArthur may have ruined all these years of ministry by his stand against the government.
I of course have no use for the Gospel Coalition.


Concerning Kline, in my reading so far, I have not heard his name come up.

Tom

Tom #57104 Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom
Except when it means choosing between obeying God or obeying our government.
With these government mandates, they are forcing many to do just that. (quoting someone else)
I must disagree, which I have done here several times already on this and similar issues dealing with gov't orders. When the country has a founding document such as the United States Constitution which GUARANTEES God-given INALIENABLE (shall not/cannot be infringed) RIGHTS, citizens are under no obligation to obey such ILLEGAL orders. Here, in the U.S. this is something which has been recognized by all agencies, e.g., military and law enforcement. No soldier nor police officer is required to obey any order/command which violates those rights and freedoms recognized in the Constitution Bill of Rights. The vaccine mandates from employers, governors, Congress, the President or any court are illegal. The same is true for lock downs where the right to freely practice one's religion or gather together in a peaceful assembly or to own and have on one's possession a firearm, etc. are prohibited. All other governmental laws, orders, etc. are to be obeyed which do not require a Christian to do that which God has forbidden or to not do what God has commanded. I know in Canada there is the Constitution and the amendment of the Charter of Rights. I do not know the exact wording of those documents, but I am going to assume that they likewise GUARANTEE certain rights and freedoms of all citizens which cannot be infringed upon by anyone and particularly the government. Actually, if one understand the U.S. Constitution, the Bill of Rights was written to limit the government in its powers, thus preserving the freedoms enumerated therein. No citizen in the U.S. need 'ask for permission' of the government to exercise ANY of the rights and freedoms guaranteed to them. Those freedoms are innate to all citizens who have not been found guilty of some serious crime.

So, those who you keep mentioning who think that Christians are obligated to obey their respective government orders, laws, policies without question, allowing for only biblical commandments to obey or biblical prohibitions, are potentially incorrect where the country they live in has a founding document which guarantees certain specific rights and freedoms to its citizens. If the government oversteps its authority and infringes upon those rights and freedoms, the government is guilty of a crime and is subject to punishment by the judicial system. Admittedly, in real life, this rarely happens, although the Supreme Court in the U.S. has overruled governmental laws, policies, mandates. In fact, there are a few cases being considered and some due to be considered by SCOTUS where states have enacted laws which are clearly anti-Constitution, e.g., the right of every citizen to own and bear arms, the right to life of the unborn, the right of citizens to own certain types of firearms, magazine capacities, etc. Hopefully, the court will rule against all these laws and restrictions which it has done in the past. [Linked Image]


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Pilgrim #57106 Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:03 PM
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Pilgrim

I am afraid the problem is with my wording, not what I meant.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, both in Canada and the USA politicians swear to uphold their Constitutions. What I said, is actually incomplete without that in mind.

You are correct to assume the same about Canada. The section is called “The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms” and it guarantees roughly the same thing, as the American documents.
Therefore, please forgive me for not mentioning this truth.

I like how you covered the issues and do not mind being corrected. Needless to say that both Canada and the USA’s governing authorities have gone beyond their own authority in these mandates and therefore are making themselves the true criminals.

I personally believe that these mandates are part of an agenda for Cultural Marxism. Fortunately, many vaccinated and unvaccinated people are seeing that their rights and freedoms are being taken away. Yet, we are seeing others who seem so scared that they actually are vocal against how they believe the unvaccinated are dangerous.

For example, one person said that the unvaccinated should be rounded up and put on a deserted island somewhere. Another said that they should treat them the way they used to treat lepers. I wish I could say those attitudes were rare; but they are not.

This subject however, is dividing family members, friends and even Reformed Churches.

If I may add another element about our Constitutions. It appears that in both Canada and the USA, our governments are using them as "living documents"; rather than as the original authors meant for them to be used.

I believe an example of this, is when the Alberta (Canada) Premier about a year(?) ago was asked what he thought of vaccine mandates and vaccine passports that were rumored at the time to be something the government was thinking of doing. The Premier answered fairly quickly, something to the effect of: "They are illegal and would never fly in court.." Fast forward almost a year and Alberta is among the harshest provinces in Canada where it comes to vaccine mandates and vaccine passports. One can not even go to McDonalds without a vaccine passport.

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:25 PM.
Tom #57108 Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom
This subject however, is dividing family members, friends and even Reformed Churches.
Is this something which should shock professing Christians as if it was inconsistent with the biblical faith? scratchchin I say nope it is 100% biblical. For throughout recorded biblical history God has brought such calamities, oppression, persecution, etc. upon the earth of which the Church was included. Why? so that the weak may be made strong, calling out to heaven for strength, wisdom and comfort. Such things have always been a means of purging the Church of the goats from the sheep. In our own day, the visible church is filled with false prophets, false teachers and false believers. Remember well, that judgment comes first upon the 'house of God' in every age, sometimes more or less depending upon the apostasy it bears. It was so even in the life of the Apostle John was it not? The vision given to him in the very beginning; Revelation chapters 2 and 3. The apostles Paul and Peter also wrote of error and apostasy within the Church as well and wrote of what was to come. Within families there will be dissention, disobedience, and dishonor and a falling away from the truth. Worldliness and the things of this world will be among them and this is to be observed in every generation. The call to those who have been given new life in the Lord Christ is ENDURE to the end, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith, Heb 12:2; Jude 1:21.


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Pilgrim #57110 Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:37 PM
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Pilgrim

I did not say that because it surprises me; it doesn't. Wisdom is definitely needed before one opens ones mouth.

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Originally Posted by Tom
Pilgrim

I did not say that because it surprises me; it doesn't. Wisdom is definitely needed before one opens ones mouth.
And wisdom is needed to discern the spiritual state of the ones to whom we might speak. [Linked Image]


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Tom #57112 Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:50 PM
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Don’t let anyone tell you what we, as Christians, are obligated to do. We alone are responsible for our decisions. Nobody can discern for us. Even our own pastors are not infallible on all matters. I’m not saying this to evoke a rebellious spirit but to prepare you that there are assuredly many who we will look toward for wisdom who will fail us. Anything coercive, especially putting/injecting a foreign, experimental substance into our own body, should be scrutinized to the fullest…..

See the Techno-Fascism that lurks behind Covid …..It is not of God.


Someone like Pilgrim has a good track record on these matters so he is trustworthy. I don’t trust Al Mohler, for example. I kicked myself off Puritanboard cause the cognitive dissonance with Covid was too much.

Last edited by Anthony C.; Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:50 PM.
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Anthony C. #57113 Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:54 AM
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Thanks for the vote of confidence. blush That video really shows how much the government has control over some of the most important aspects of your life. The need to present some form of identification/verification is oppressive.... HOWEVER it also demonstrates the rank hypocrisy of the Left which vehemently opposes the necessity of a voter ID because that would eliminate a significant percentage of their voters, e.g., dead people, illegal aliens, non-existent people, ineligible voters and multiple votes by one individual. evilgrin


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Anthony C. #57114 Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:32 PM
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Anthony

Very interesting video and one that on the surface without all the obvious signs of government control, might sound very convenient.

I used to be a big fan of Albert Mohler; and although I still enjoy on occasion his broadcast called 'The Briefing'. I do have a lot of concern about how he advises people to handle issues like Covid. I believe very strongly that everyone should make their own choices based on the information available to them, as to whether or not they want to get vaccinated or not.
To me, it really is not as much about getting vaccinated or not. It has more to do with trust.

The government and their health officials have proved time and time again, that they should not be trusted.
They will tell you that the vaccines are perfectly safe and it is extremely rare to have a bad reaction.

They ignore the fact that literally millions are having serious reactions, even death after they have been vaccinated.
A friend of mine has some friends who he is (or at least was) pro-vaccine. The wife however, because of her research has not been vaccinated.
After he received his first vaccination he did not have a reaction. Yet after his second vaccination, he started having severe pain and other complications to the vaccine. When he went to his doctor, he was told in no uncertain terms that he should just stop watching all the bad information on social media.
In other words, his doctor blew him off.

I have heard many such stories, including what happens to caring doctors who do not tow the line.
Not to mention the fact that there are drugs such as Ivermectin that have proved to be very effective in the prevention and treatment of Covid-19; which are no longer allowed to be used. When you mention Ivermectin to a lot of people; they laugh at you and mock you saying we are idiots to want to use "horse de-wormer".

Another issue that should raise red flags to any caring person, is the fact they are rolling out the vaccines to children 5-12 years of age. An age group, that if they get Covid, will only have minor flu like symptoms. They are more likely to die of the vaccine, than die of Covid-19. Which is proving true in teenagers, especially boys, sigh...
This might sound bad, but if I still had young children and they were trying to make them get vaccinated. They would do so against my cold dead body!

There are a lot of people that should know better, that refuse to believe our health officials should not be trusted. They dismiss information as untrustworthy, if they do not jive with the information our health officials are pushing. This includes doctors and scientists on the front lines against Covid-19, who warn against the vaccines.

Tell me why, we should trust them?

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:49 PM.
Tom #57115 Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:48 PM
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Yes, great points. My personal care physician just got out of medicine all together…. Crazy times.
I’m sure you’re aware of this as well….. (There’s too much to just ignore)….


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