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Mr. Parsonage,

May I respectfully suggest that you study the Attributes of God, perhaps starting with the work by that title by A.W. Pink?

To best know God, one must know *about* Him, and to know about Him, one must be willing to acquaint one's self with as much as possible about His nature, character, attributes, purpose, and works.

I'm one among many who can say that Pink's work has helped me to do that, in spite of many influences to the contrary.


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Originally Posted by alan parsonage
He loves me, He loves me not
You say Yes, the Father and the Son are one and there is no contradiction between them. Do these passages support that God loves all men without exception? Answer yes they are consistent with it
Really? The truth is I say, "NO!" The Father from eternity decreed to save a remnant out of Adam's fallen race and give them to the Son. He thus chose each by name and predestined them to salvation in Christ. The Son, being one with the Father agreed to become man and give Himself as a vicarious substitute for them in order to accomplish their salvation. This is historically known as the "Covenant of Redemption" which was formed in eternity. Also, the Holy Spirit, being one with the Father and Son agreed to work regeneration in the elect through the Gospel, bring them to Christ working faith in them and preserving them in that faith, and sanctifying them throughout their appointed time on earth. (Ps 2; Isa 53:10-12; John 5:17-31, 36-37, 43; 6:37-40, 57; 7:28-29, 38-39; 8:16-19, 26-29, 38, 42, 49-54; 9:4; 10:14-18, 25-30, 36-38; 12:23-28, 44-50; 13:3, 20, 31-32; 14:9-14, 16-20, 24-26; 15:8-15, 24-27; 16:7-16, 27-28; 17).

I have already provided clear passages of Scripture that incontrovertibly show that God loves some whom He chose to save and that He hates others. He is angry with the wicked day and night and has prepared Hell for them, the Devil and the fallen angels. Christ came and died for those whom the Father gave Him... NOT for all men, else salvation would be universal, which clearly Scripture teaches it is not.

Originally Posted by alan parsonage
You say How do you reconcile the fact that the Lord Christ preached in parables so that in order that, purpose] they should not be saved... except to those whom it is given to see, hear and comprehend the Gospel.? In Matthew we have the same truth expressed in another way
Answer: are you saying that because these were not on God's good list so they were spoken to in parables? So before that everyone in the crowd must have been on his 'elect' list. This is a judgment reaction , the default is always love. this parallels how God treats us now , Drawing us all in but removing that if we sin too much.
The text, Mark 4:10-12 is more than perspicuous revealing that Christ taught in parables so that the hearers would not be saved, i.e., they would remain in their God-hating sinful state and under the just judgment of God (cf. John 12:37-41; Matt 11:25-27). There is no "God's good list" for their is "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;" (Rom 3:10,11). Can you give one single passage that shows that God "draws us all"? Again, all is needed is one instance where God only draws some and your presupposition is false: see John 6:44, (cf. Jh 6:39; 11:7,9,11,24).


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A thought I hope might be helpful in cases like these.

I rarely argue with Catholics specifically about Mary or Communion or the Papacy, because these issues are all secondary to a grossly insufficient view of the Word of God. Arguing just means hurt feelings. What is needed is generally the Gospel, and prayer. That the person in question would be saved, or, if he or she already is, then for spiritual growth, such that they would understand that the Word of God is infinitely superior to the word of sinful man. Then, but only then, will they likely be open to sound Biblical teaching.

It is very much the same thing IMO when dealing with Arminians or semi-Pelagians. Like Catholics, they trust in a "gospel" that is subtlely, and hence dangerously, inadequate. Arguing about the Solas or TULIP or even the attributes of God rarely works. But the Gospel, and prayer, might. As for anyone else, these are means by which God saves and then grows His children. And like Catholics, Arminians must learn that the Word of God is infinitely superior to the word of man. But I think they can only learn this from the Holy Spirit, and not from arguments about things that, though important, are secondary to knowing Him as He truly Is.

Once a person is committed to knowing, loving, and serving God, as He really and truly Is (not the false "gods" of Rome or Pelagius), the rest should follow naturally. A person so committed will be willing to learn. It will then be a joy, and not a struggle, to introduce them to those important truths that we in the Biblical, Protestant, and Reformed tradition hold dear.


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My I suggest that apologetics is no less a means which God has ordained to stand against all errors and evil which the Church and its members are daily assaulted with. The Five Solas or TULIP are fundamental truths of the Gospel and I believe worthy of being defended for no one comes to Christ through false gospels, nor believing in a false christ in those counterfeit gospels. Continue in my Word and you know the truth and the truth will set you free (Jh 8:31). grin


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No question that apologetics and the Doctrines of Grace are vital. I certainly did not mean to imply otherwise. I would not know how to explain the Gospel to anyone, much less to a worshipper of an un-sovereign, powerless "god" to be found nowhere in Scripture, without those doctrines.

My point, which I probably didn't make clearly, was that in many if not most cases, the person with a low view of Grace has a low view of Scripture, and hence a low view of its Author, and hence probably is either very new or weak in the Faith, or unregenerate. Hence, the immediate need is most likely conversion.

Apologetics, and the proclamation of sound doctrine, certainly are instruments God can use to draw a person to Himself.

But the goal can't be to win an argument, much as I'd often like to. It must be that God's sovereign will might be done with respect to the individual in question. Hopefully that person's conversion; although in the end it is in God's hands; yet, He ordains the means, as well as the ends.

I'm sorry if I'm still not being entirely clear. I used to be an awful lot better at this. smile


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BigThumbUp Gotcha! Yes, it is God whose will is accomplished through our faithful proclamation of the Gospel and all truth, whether to harden the heart or by the Spirit's work to enlighten the mind and heart in the sanctification of the saints or to efficaciously call the elect unto justification and the love of God and the Lord Christ.


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Yousay: I have already provided clear passages of Scripture that incontrovertibly show that God loves some whom He chose to save and that He hates others.
Answer: no you have not, Every single passage you link is, I respectfully suggest. usually floored logic or it shows God hates some for their behavior not an underlying hatred no matter what the individual does. Is that how you want to portray God?. This is our fundamental difference, I believe that God has an underlying love for all (the kosmos) but can hate some of them for their behavior but still loves them. There is also a clear and obvious a lack of decency/love/fairness in the God you portray.

You say:He is angry with the wicked day and night and has prepared Hell for them, the Devil and the fallen angels.
Answer: yes the key word being wicked i.e their behavior. He has an underlying merciful benevolent love at the same time. Wanting all to be saved

You say:Christ came and died for those whom the Father gave Him... NOT for all men, else salvation would be universal, which clearly Scripture teaches it is not.
Answer: I respectfully suggest, floored logic again, Christ did enough, a finite amount, hence he said 'it is finished. There is revelation on this from modern day prophet Kat Kerr. 'Christ died for every sin that could possibly be committed'. So if Christ died for all sins does that mean I am saying all would be saved. NO, of course not, we still have to chose and some may not but he has done enough for all

John 6 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day
I respectfully suggest, more floored logic: You suggest this means the Father does not draw all men. I think it does not embrace how many are drawn at all but all of those who are saved are drawn. It might be 1% of the total number of humans or 100%.
You also reference joh 6 39-40, you seem to link 'those he predestined' to 'those he gave me'. I think there are several steps between these two groups, namely 'many are called few are chosen'. I think God gives absolutely everyone who lives up to an age of accountability multiple chances of salvation. Those he foreknew (absolutely everybody) he predsetined,and those ,he called. So everyone predestined to be called only, not saved.

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absolutely agree

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Originally Posted by alan parsonage
Yousay: I have already provided clear passages of Scripture that incontrovertibly show that God loves some whom He chose to save and that He hates others.
Answer: no you have not, Every single passage you link is, I respectfully suggest. usually floored logic or it shows God hates some for their behavior not an underlying hatred no matter what the individual does. Is that how you want to portray God?. This is our fundamental difference, I believe that God has an underlying love for all (the kosmos) but can hate some of them for their behavior but still loves them. There is also a clear and obvious a lack of decency/love/fairness in the God you portray.
Really? scratchchin Romans 9:11-13 (ASV) 11 "for [the children] being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." And, all your "not fair" protests are based upon YOUR idea what is fairness; not God's fairness which is His divine right. The salient arguments which all men bring forth against God choosing some to be saved in Christ and choosing the rest to eternal punishment are answered by the Spirit through the Apostle Paul from vss. 14 ff.

Originally Posted by alan parsonage
You say:He is angry with the wicked day and night and has prepared Hell for them, the Devil and the fallen angels.
Answer: yes the key word being wicked i.e their behavior. He has an underlying merciful benevolent love at the same time. Wanting all to be saved
Your objections are typically grounded in two fundamental errors (sem-Pelagianism); 1. A false view of the Sovereign God who is sovereign in both power and authority. In short, God has the divine right to do as HE pleases with His creation!!

Romans 9:20-21 (ASV) "20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? 21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?"

Isaiah 46:9-11 (ASV) "9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; [I am] God, and there is none like me; 10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not [yet] done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure; 11 calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country; yea, I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it."

Psalms 135:5-6 (ASV) "5 For I know that Jehovah is great, And that our Lord is above all gods. 6 Whatsoever Jehovah pleased, that hath he done, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps;"

2. A false view and denial of the condition of man after the Fall, i.e., Original Sin. Scripture teaches that ALL men (mankind; men, women, children) are born spiritually dead, not sick, not terminally ill, but DEAD! By nature, the natural man hates God and all that is good.

John 3:19-20 (ASV) "19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved."

Romans 3:9-18 (ASV) "9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin; 10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God; 12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not, so much as one: 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; With their tongues they have used deceit: The poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Ephesians 2:1-5 (ASV) "1 And you [did he make alive,] when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:-- 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),"

Ephesians 4:17-19 (ASV) "17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart; 19 who being past feeling gave themselves up to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness."

The late Gordon Girod gives an adequate, albeit short summary of this biblical doctrine here: Total Depravity

John Owen makes your view of the atonement null and void when he wrote:
To which I may add this dilemma to our Universalists:

"God imposed his wrath due unto, and Christ underwent the pains of hell for,

1. either all the sins of all men,
2. or all the sins of some men,
3. or some sins of all men.

If the last, some sins of all men, then have all men some sins to answer for, and so shall no man be saved; for if God entered into judgment with us, though it were with all mankind for one sin, no flesh should be justified in his sight: “If the LORD should mark iniquities, who should stand?” Ps. cxxx. 2. We might all go to cast all that we have “to the moles and to the bats, to go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty,” Isa. ii. 20, 21.

If the Second, that is it which we affirm, that Christ in their stead and room Suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the world.

If the first, why then, are not all freed from the punishment of all their sins?

You will say, “Because of their unbelief; they will not believe.”

But this unbelief, is it a sin, or not?

If not, why should they be punished for it? If it be, then Christ underwent the punishment due to it, or not.

If so, then why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which he died from partaking of the fruit of his death?

If he did not, then did he not die for all their sins. Let them choose which part they will."


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Mr. Parsonage,

I'm not sure we have much common ground here.

The Bible is correct, complete, and final. It may be neither subtracted from, nor added to. The apostolic gifts ceased once Scripture was complete and they were no longer needed. The contrary view (Montanism) has been soundly rejected by Bible-believing Christians since shortly after it appeared in the late 2nd century. To elevate reason, tradition, experience, emotionalism, or false teachers or "prophets" over the Word of God, is to deny that Word, and, hence, its Author. None of us are perfect on this or any other point; however, denial of the Word should not be a habit, it should not be on purpose, it should not be blatant, and we should be open to biblical correction, at any time, on this or any other subject.

You have been rejecting biblical arguments, making emotional arguments instead, and even going so far as to appeal to a false modern-day "prophetess" for the specific purpose of rejecting biblical doctrine. This says to me that you are seeking not to learn from God or His people, but rather to justify your own position, which I think even you recognize at this point to be contrary to Scripture.

I will pray that God will reveal Himself to you, that you will come to know Him as He really and truly Is, and that you will grow in knowledge of the written Word (as well as the Incarnate Word) for all of your days.

I also encourage you to strongly and prayerfully consider 2 Tim. 3:16-17: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

I honestly don't know how else to respond. Others here might. But I will pray for you.


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Hi journeyman, thanks for the reply, and the prays. Appreciated and received and your love of the Lord shines through. I feel in the same team as you, though, strangely, I do not think you do of me?
I would like to go more reductionist in my approach to this thread

You say: 'position, which I think even you recognize at this point to be contrary to Scripture'
Answer: Really, do i?? could you please point out which bit of my position is contrary to scripture, just one bit and no more to start please.

thanks
alan.

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Not gonna argue with you. I don't that will help you or anyone else. I will pray for you. And I continue to encourage you to learn about the attributes of God, and also what God's Word says about its own authority and finality.


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OK journeyman, position accepted, but iron sharpens iron you know? I too, have the same love, reverence and give absolute authority to scripture as do you but your reluctance to discuss it leads me to believe you hold similar high views of your own interpretation of it. Not what the Bereans did, btw.

I thank you and accept your prayers for Revelation on scripture. I will always accept them. You are not clear as to what your views are but I am assuming you share the same view as my protagonist throughout this thread. This position greatly worries me as I believe, you are in danger of misrepresenting The Father.

I plead with you both to say the following prayer: 'I ask for revelation in your Word on man choosing and/or God choosing who is saved. I receive it'.

Also your dismissal of 'Kat Kerr false prophetess' is not what 1 Corinthians 14 29 tells you you should do. and Psalm 105 15 likewise.

It is easy to see if Kerr is false as she along with several others are predicting Trump back in (in this term not 2024) and Biden out. If she is wrong she is done. Watch.

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QUESTION: Do you REALLY believe that salvation is by grace ALONE?... through faith by grace and not of works; any work whatsoever?

See this little diagramed test here: Grace Alone?


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OK journeyman, position accepted, but iron sharpens iron you know? I too, have the same love, reverence and give absolute authority to scripture as do you but your reluctance to discuss it leads me to believe you hold similar high views of your own interpretation of it. Not what the Bereans did, btw.

I thank you and accept your prayers for Revelation on scripture. I will always accept them. You are not clear as to what your views are but I am assuming you share the same view as my protagonist throughout this thread. This position greatly worries me as I believe, you are in danger of misrepresenting The Father.

I plead with you both to say the following prayer: 'I ask for revelation in your Word on man choosing and/or God choosing who is saved. I receive it'.

Also your dismissal of 'Kat Kerr false prophetess' is not what 1 Corinthians 14 29 tells you you should do. and Psalm 105 15 likewise.

It is easy to see if Kerr is false as she along with several others are predicting Trump back in (in this term not 2024) and Biden out. If she is wrong she is done. Watch.

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