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Originally Posted by alan parsonage
Also your dismissal of 'Kat Kerr false prophetess' is not what 1 Corinthians 14 29 tells you you should do. and Psalm 105 15 likewise.
CONTEXT... Paul is addressing the "church" at Corinth and giving protocol regarding those who speak in tongues and prophesy.
1 Corinthians 14:27-29 (ASV) "27 If any man speaketh in a tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most three, and [that] in turn; and let one interpret: 28 but if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 And let the prophets speak [by] two or three, and let the others discern."

Psalms 105:15 (ASV) "15 [Saying], Touch not mine anointed ones, And do my prophets no harm."
What authentication can you site that would confirm that Kat Kerr is in fact God's prophet? scratchchin

This is what Scripture thinks of false prophets:
Quote
Deuteronomy 18:18-22 (ASV) 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die. 21 And if thou say in thy heart, How shall we know the word which Jehovah hath not spoken? 22 when a prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him."
Soooooo, be extremely careful when you or anyone claims to be God's prophet for the true prophets always spoke what God commanded them to speak. And when a true prophet speaks the words spoken are God's words and thus they are to be embraced and obeyed as appropriate.


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You say: Soooooo, be extremely careful when you or anyone claims to be God's prophet

Firstly, i do not claim to be a prophet, and i take your good advice completely as I have been fooled by false prophets before too and have studied a lot of them. Many are false, no very many. I am certainly very careful. She's more a revelator than a prophet.

This is what she claims is a quote directly from God's Holy Spirit 'You choose to be chosen'
This is what she claims is a quote directly from God The Father 'I do not send anyone to Hell, they send themselves there by rejecting my Son' (added by me, to reject Christ you must be offered him),
Do these make her not a TULIP? Im not sure I really know what TULIP means anymore? Over to you?
Her revelation on James 1:17, Acts 17 28, will I believe greatly challenge you and especially your interpretation of Romans 8 29-30. Those 'he did foreknow' now has other possible meanings you could not have considered.

YOU SAY What authentication can you site that would confirm that Kat Kerr is in fact God's prophet?
Heres a link to my web site where I give 4 reasons to validate Kerr.
https://worldsapartbiblically.com/kerr_2.html (its still getting proof read so apologies for typos)

Also add to that list-Her revelations formed a base by which , I believe, I am able to prove Gap theory.undeniably from scripture and even provide a paradigm model that answers many questions that far superior minds than mine cannot with their own models

You choose prophet or liar?
There is , I believe, a prophetic movement by God with several prophets 'coming through' at the same time.They are different. Kerr say the 'Kingdom Age' is upon us. Robin Bullock is another worthy of looking at.

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1. I can tell you without any doubt whatsoever that Kat Kerr does not believe anything close to "T.U.L.I.P". nope You can read this biblically faithfully explanation of what TULIP is here: TULIP by John H. Gerstner.

2. Since I hold to Cessationism, I de facto reject any suggestion that Kat Kerr or anyone else is a "prophet" to whom God speaks directly. The canon of Scripture is closed and no further direct revelation from God exists... nor is that necessary. All that is necessary for faith and practice is contained in the supernatural, inspired, infallible and inerrant written Word of God; the Bible.

3. Rom 8:28-30 is clear enough to understand correctly to those who have been given to know by the Holy Spirit.


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You say:Rom 8:28-30 is clear enough to understand correctly to those who have been given to know by the Holy Spirit.

I ask what does 'who he did foreknow' refer to? Who is in this category?
What tenses are being used and what time frame are these sentences referring to?

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Originally Posted by alan parsonage
I ask what does 'who he did foreknow' refer to? Who is in this category?
What tenses are being used and what time frame are these sentences referring to?
Quote
Romans 8:28-30 (ASV) 28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, [even] to them that are [the] called according to [his] purpose. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Context is so important and that's why I have included v. 28 which determines the reason for vv. 29 and 30. Paul had been telling the Roman Christians that despite the corruption of the entire world which began when Adam disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden, they are not to despair for the Spirit is working in them and interceding for them in their prayers to God who is bringing all things to their final purpose, which is primarily for His own glory and their personal good. In v. 28 Paul reminds them that to those who love God, i.e., those whom God has called (Grk the called), the elect all things work for good according to HIS purpose. Now, beginning in v. 29 Paul, by inspiration of the Spirit, reveals in more detail what that purpose consists in regard to His working all things for the believers' good.

1. Foreknew For whom, not "what" He foreknew indicates a) whom God had set His love upon and b) from all eternity.
- the word "know" [Grk: ginoskow; proginoskow] is not to be understood only as knowledge or prescience. For the Bible uses this term to mean much more, e.g., "And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain,". It would be irrational, never mind illogical to interpret this text to mean that Adam knew things about Eve and consequently she became pregnant and gave birth to a son. drop Adam intimately loved his wife and thus a child was born. Another example can be found in Matt 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23" Here are many other passages where "know" means not knowledge about, but rather loved, affection for, etc. (Gen 18:19; Jer 1:5; Jh 10:14,28; 2Tim 2:19; Ps 1:6; Amos 3:2; Hos 13:5; 1Cor 8:3; Gal 4:9; 1Jh 3:1; Rom 11:2).

2. Having "foreloved" a people out of Adam's fallen race, He/God, foreordained/predestined, i.e., God decreed; to make certain, to ordain the end, these individuals to be "conformed to the image of His Son". These chosen ones will be perfectly transformed to be like unto Christ, so that Christ who is their Head, will have all the preeminence over all creation both in this world and in the new world to come.

3. v. 30 And now Paul expands on this "purpose" of God by revealing how this glorious plan is going to work out, i.e, specifically for those who are beloved of God. This foreordination was from all eternity, being presently brought to pass and will continue to the end (telos). Thus the first step in His working in and for the saints is: "them He called". Again, it must be emphasized that words rarely have one meaning. Context is what will determine how they are understood. The question you asked before is re: calling. For this particular purpose let's say that "calling" in Scripture in regard to salvation has two distinct meanings: 1) The indiscriminate proclamation of the Gospel throughout the world. This we term the "outward calling" of all men to repentance and faith in the Lord Christ for the remission of sins and reconciliation to God. 2) The sovereign and effectual calling of the elect whereby the Holy Spirit, working in conjunction with the Word of God, regenerates a sinner thus recreating the once spiritually dead soul, bringing deep conviction of sin and the inability to do anything to rectify their guilt and corruption, and granting repentance and creating a saving faith in Christ within them. (cf. Eph 2:1-10; et al) We need only to go back to the first chapter of Romans and read Paul's salutation to grasp what this "calling" found in 9:30 is. "to all in Rome who are beloved of God, saints by virtue of having been called..." This the same construction "beloved" [known] by God and "called" to be saints. See here: The Call that Brings a Response.

4. And thus those whom God set His love and foreordained that they should be conformed to the image of Christ are effectually called through the working of the Spirit, they are infallibly justified, and finally infallibly ordained to be glorified, i.e., fully conformed to the image of Christ, which the Spirit works in them throughout their lives to that end, i.e., sanctification.


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alanparsonage, It is clear to me that you have not read the articles that Pilgrim so graciously posted in this lengthy thread. Please go back to each one and read every word. Look up all of the scriptures referenced and pray that God will enlighten you to the truth of His Word.



Originally Posted by Pilgrim
1. I can tell you without any doubt whatsoever that Kat Kerr does not believe anything close to "T.U.L.I.P". nope You can read this biblically faithfully explanation of what TULIP is here: TULIP by John H. Gerstner.

2. Since I hold to Cessationism, I de facto reject any suggestion that Kat Kerr or anyone else is a "prophet" to whom God speaks directly. The canon of Scripture is closed and no further direct revelation from God exists... nor is that necessary. All that is necessary for faith and practice is contained in the supernatural, inspired, infallible and inerrant written Word of God; the Bible.

3. Rom 8:28-30 is clear enough to understand correctly to those who have been given to know by the Holy Spirit.

I totally agree.


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HI pilgrim head honcho. Thanks for the reply, which flowed nicely and i could follow and understand it and you even answered one of the q's you previously did not. Now we are cooking! I do agree with much of what you say but:

The whole of your stance seems to stand of fall on your interpretation of 'foreknow' as an 'elect' who God loved and loved God. This does not stand up to scrutiny in my opinion. You point out that God describes man and women becoming one flesh (genesis 2:24) and also describes the same act as 'knew'.You conclude that 'knew ' means thus a deeper love. I completely agree that this insight is correct to link the two but my conclusion is different.Note the way in Genesis 2:24 God had to add the term flesh. I think two can become one spiritually too. (not humans)
I think if God had meant love he would have used love (agape) and not knew. I think it is more literal, I think If God has an 'indwelling relationship of any kind' he says he' Knew' them. (there may well be deeper love involved too btw)

You use Jesus' quote .. 'that I never new you'...mat 7:23.and say that it means he never loved you. Again I think God would use agape if he meant agape. My stance is that Jesus is referring to the fact that he was not born again with an indwelling Christ fits better with the surrounding text which describes the damnation of someone who was not'known' so not born again and so cursed. This is what we would expect.

Acts 17 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring
Acts seems to be describing man having an existence before Christ's time. A' being' not a thought or concept.There is much evidence to support the view that our spirits were created sometime before the Earth. To save you from scrolling to and from your Bible I have prepared a Small web page, just for you, with all the links and my thinking here. Click on the bible links and they appear as a light box for you. Hold on to your hat.
https://worldsapartbiblically.com/for_head_honcho.html

Once established that God foreknew everybody, then Romans 8 ;27-30 take on a completely different meaning
God foreordained everybody to be changed into the image of Christ, but this predestinaton is not a prophecy but an availability for all but there are some t & c s. You must repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. From Romans 8:27-30 text, I see no reason that God predestining us to be conformed into being like Christ is unconditional, but I can see how its availability to all is unconditional. The text says God predestined us to be changed-we have to ok the change. This sound s more like the God I know.

Man can step away form this predestined availability and God confirms this as 'many are called but few are chosen. matt 22 14

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Hi tulip not a daisy.

you say:alanparsonage, It is clear to me that you have not read the articles that Pilgrim so graciously posted in this lengthy thread. Please go back to each one and read every word. Look up all of the scriptures referenced and pray that God will enlighten you to the truth of His Word

i say: I read much of them and all the scripture quotes actually, I just disagree with the interpretations passionately (know means love ???!!!) and I can back up my disagreement with scripture. Many of the links were to a voluminous nmuber of articles and many were repetitive I did not read all of those.
I invite you to answer my last posting too btw on what 'foreknown' means.

Why do you think God enlightens you to the truth of his word and not me? are your herneneutics beyond failing? Should we not be iron sharpening iron?

Give me your best quote of scripture which I 'obviously must not have read'/understood-just one to start?

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Originally Posted by alan parsonage
The whole of your stance seems to stand of fall on your interpretation of 'foreknow' as an 'elect' who God loved and loved God. This does not stand up to scrutiny in my opinion.
Unfortunately you are incorrect but again. 1) My 'stance' does not stand or fall on my interpretation of 'foreknow'. My point to YOU is that, which you seem to either totally fail to comprehend or that you totally reject the premise of biblical hermeneutics, substituting the Bible's hermeneutic for one which is sometimes called a "Psycho-Statistical-Mean" hermeneutic. Simply put, one derives at a meaning of any particular word by it's common/popular understanding at a particular time in a particular social structure. I've explained this phenomena in great detail elsewhere so I'll provide you with only the "Cliff Notes" version. If you went around your neighborhood and asked each household what the word "run" means and recorded the answers and then added up the various responses, the one with the most 'votes' would be the definition used everywhere it appears. It appears that in this particular case, you have opted to define "know" as data about, a composite of information perceived, etc. I have incontrovertibly showed you for myriad biblical passages that this is totally incorrect. Again, a few pointed examples: Jer 1:5;Matt 7:21-23; Rom 9:11-13. Perhaps you have never studied in depth not only what 'foreknowledge' is but even more importantly, how it exists? scratchchin Biblically, foreknowledge is the fruit of God's determinate council; His decree(s). God is Omniscient; He knows ALL THINGS because He has determined ALL THINGS according to His good pleasure. There is NOTHING which happens nor exists that God hasn't ordained from eternity. An architect can look at a blank lot and describe what a future building will look like down to the minutest detail. Why? Because he is the creator, the author of that building. His 'knowledge' of that building is the fruit, the result of his idea that first resided in his mind. See here: The Foreknowledge of God by A.W. Pink. 2) You have inserted something which I never wrote nor implied. In fact I categorically deny the statement that the definition of '[the]elect' is as you wrote: "who God loved and loved God". nono Nowhere is there even the slightest hint in Scripture that God elected anyone to salvation on the basis that they loved God. And how would that even be possible??? scratch1 Before anything ever existed, God's election of a remnant of Adam's fallen race was based upon nothing other than God's good pleasure apart from anything whatsoever to do with the future recipient's of His mercy and grace. The Scripture teaches an "UNCONDITIONAL Election". There is and never was ANYTHING in regard to man which could have commended even one individual to God in order to be favored by Him. Among the myriad passages in Scripture that teach this, one that immediately stands out for me is Ephesians 1:1-14.

Originally Posted by alan parsonage
You use Jesus' quote .. 'that I never new you'...mat 7:23.and say that it means he never loved you. Again I think God would use agape if he meant agape. My stance is that Jesus is referring to the fact that he was not born again with an indwelling Christ fits better with the surrounding text which describes the damnation of someone who was not 'known' so not born again and so cursed. This is what we would expect.
Thanks for this for it illustrates perfectly an example of the "Psycho-Statistical-Mean" hermeneutic you labor under. It is also a clear example of Eisogesis, i.e., inserting something into a text that doesn't exist. And thirdly, it demonstrates your arrogance and a despising of God and His Spirit for the Bible. Every jot and tittle is authored by God Himself and to even suggest that God should have written "agape" vs "gnosko" in Matt 7:23 if His intent was to convey that Jesus never 'loved' the workers of iniquity. Clearly the text as written says that Jesus never 'knew' them... which one cannot conclude that He 'knew' them, as you have admitted, i.e., He knew they were not born again drop. For He, Jesus knew everything about them; every thought, word and deed and thus called them "ye that work iniquity" which in Jh 6:44 are described as being the offspring of the Devil. So, the 'I never knew you' in this text cannot mean a 'knowledge about' but rather a 'love for'. It is those who work iniquity that God hates and will cast into the Lake of Fire.

Originally Posted by alan parsonage
Acts 17 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Acts seems to be describing man having an existence before Christ's time. A' being' not a thought or concept. There is much evidence to support the view that our spirits were created sometime before the Earth.
1) Paul's statement at Mars' hill was addressed to the contemporary philosophers gathered there and making note to them he noticed the alter where upon it was written: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. What he explained to them was there is a known God and that He is the creator of all things, even themselves. And because even their own poets recognized that their existence was to admit that they were God's "offspring", then it was more than foolish to offer worship to their idols made of stone, gold, silver which are the musings of man's silly mental fabrications. Where you get any notion that this shows that 'our spirits were created sometime before the earth' is dumbfounding. rolleyes2 Jesus in confrontation by the Pharisees told them that Abraham rejoiced to see my day... and expectedly they ridiculed Him since Jesus wasn't even 50 years old. His response was: [before Abraham was [Grk: genesthai = existed, came into being], I AM [Grk: ego eimi = eternal, the everlasting eternal GOD] (cf. Ex 3:14; Isa 43:13, 44:6, 48:12; Rev 1:8). This statement was to reveal and confess that this Jesus of Nazareth was not just a man but rather God existing in the person of the man Jesus. The infinity and eternity spoken of was of the Son; God the Son and not of the human person Jesus. One must never confuse the two individual natures of Jesus; man and Divine, albeit they being inseparable. See here: The Creed of Chalcedon. Why do you think that by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit the Apostle Paul calls the incarnate Son of God the "firstborn of every creature" (cf. Eph 1:15,18; Rom 8:29)? Since the Son created all things, how could there be humans existing before the One who created all mankind? (cf. Jh 1:1; Col 1:15-17)


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Lets go one at a time:
You say:Where you get any notion that this shows that 'our spirits were created sometime before the earth' is dumbfounding.Read the link , there is plenty of evidence.
Specifically' For in him we live, and move, and have our being' as you rightly point out is talking about a time in the past. So in who? How did we move? and how did we exist? in this previous time?

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Well, well, head honcho, it seems that your oft self proclaimed high standard of hermeneutic understanding has deserted you. I still wait your answer to Acts 17:28 which has a clear and obvious plain text meaning to me. Here are the Qs again.
Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being' as you rightly point out is talking about a time in the past. So in who? How did we move? and how did we exist? in this previous time?

In a perhaps not so coincidental coincidence Kat Kerr herself, yesterday, discusses this verse. I recommend that you take an hour to see what these prophets 'who do not exist today' sound like. Find out how big Heaven is at the same time too. http://e.elijahlistmail.com/t/26880067/272362924/213718/253/

Once established that we (our spirit only) preexisted our birth on earth it becomes clear that all the scripture you quote to back up your position can and should be interpreted differently in that God loved everybody and predestined all to be saved but we had to choose to be saved along the way.The default was saved, but we had to answer the call.
Please give me your best piece of scripture to confirm otherwise, You quote Ephesians 1 but I quote the same back at you to back up my position note how
verse 4 describes our pre-existence
verse 13 describes us believing and trusting as part of the process
There is nothing throughout that contradicts my stance that God purposed all to be saved but some rejected the offer.

Lets do the verses together, one at a time.

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1. Your sarcasm will gain you nothing here. grin
2. Acts 17:28 simply understood is that in contradistinction to the pagan idols which the residents held as their gods and which Paul told them was nothing short of foolishness for these idols were made by men... the one true God created all things and rules sovereignly over ever facet of the lives of men. There is nothing whatsoever in the passage about pre-existent souls. To suggest such a thing is ridiculous.
3. As stated before along with links to my article(s) and others, salvation is NOT, to use Billy Graham's statement from his book How to be Born Again "God has done everything He can to save you. Now, it's up to you." Salvation is of the LORD (Jonah 2:9). It is ALL of grace and not of works, including the fantasy of man's "free-will" which makes God a servant of the creature and an idol of man's fallen nature and quest for autonomy.

That's all I shall say to you. And I withdraw and adopt jta's position that what is needed at this point is a clear understanding of the Gospel by you and prayer for your soul.


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The Qs on acts 17 28 were specific and yet again you ignore them,. 'In him we live and move and have our being' is about as unambiguous as is possible to be as describing an indwelling, yet you define it as 'ludicrous'.. Denial of the obvious, Much more evidence on the link too. denial, denial and not at all like a Berean.
You do well do drop out of the argument as the path it is taking is clear.
I also suggest your cessstionism stance is about to be challenged too and soon, as Kerr has prophesied Biden out, and Trump reinstated along with a social media company collapse ( (I think facebook) and a MSM big name going too. All totally unpredictable by man. What will you do if these come true?

Blessings to you head honcho, i hope you come to know the truth and I plead with you again not to publish anything that paints God as unloving and that would deter the unsaved, I have at least shown you how your biblical interpretations are not necessarily; correct.

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I really do not want to interrupt your conversation with Pilgrim. However, it seems to me (among other things) that if your understanding of John 3:16 is correct, it contradicts other verses and passages such a John 6:37.
Quote
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."


This verse touches on the question of predestination—the idea that God is the one who ultimately decides which persons are saved and which are not. See also John 6:44 & 65.

Tom

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