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#58019 Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:27 AM
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Note: This prologue is a theoretical hypotheses of Israel’s eschatology, and is what I think (and all the Plymouth Brethren) is probably truth; and let us be aware that regardless of what may be considered, it is not essential doctrine, same for any growth truth that has no effect on one’s salvation (i.e. whether or not if one believes salvation is permanent does not affect being saved.)




The Lord has come and many Gentiles have received Him, but still not many of God’s people have received Him; but this will come later, after they see Him (Jhn 20:29). There are those among “God’s people” who presently believe in God (Jn 14:1 – “believing Israel”), but not in is Son. These He has surly saved (still in union but presently out of fellowship), for what is there to be said of the years God has and is dealing with believing Israel; which is saying much more than not believing at all, which has always been the state of the majority of the world. Otherwise a vast majority of the Jews would be lost! There have always been those who believe in God who love Him, thus is the love to them to be finally shunned? God has always returned their hearts to Him and will yet do so one more time—and it will be permanent. Many I’m sure are not familiar with the fact that God has saved the Israelites who believe in Him, by the same method of Christ’ Blood efficacy, as it was “paid forward” (Act 2:2; Rom 3:25; Heb 9:15-22).

The only time that remains for the return to fellowship of believing Israel (to fellowship, not union which has never been broken) is during the Millennium, when they shall finally see Him and believe (but no son-ship in Christ, just a people of God); and this is when they and the Christians will take part in the “first resurrection” (Rev 20:5). The Lord and those with Him will teach Israel what God has prepared for them. Israel now believing in Christ will be the New Earthly representative, with Christ and those who are His instructing Israel (Mat 19:28; Luk 22:30).

The prophecies of Jerimiah and Ezekiel do not be refer to the present covenant of the Christians, because it is a covenant with man; for the present and “everlasting Covenant” is between the Father and the Son, in that the Father raised the Son from the dead after expiating their sins (Heb 13:20, et al). Thus Christians are not in a covenant with God (Benefactor), but are recipients (beneficiaries) of the “Covenant of Redemption”!

Whether or not this is just theory or truth, it thankfully is not essential doctrine, and cannot effect salvation either way it is believed.
NC





The Three Covenants



“Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. (Heb 13:20, 21).

Here we have the word “covenant” (which is so frequently mentioned in chapters 8, 9, 10, 12) and an eternal covenant. It is here we find “the God of peace bringing again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the Great Shepherd of the sheep”—how? “With the Blood of an eternal covenant.” That is, in accordance with the terms of an agreement between the Father and the Son, which terms are seen to be a promise from the Father that if the Son would become “a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death” (Heb 2:9), shedding His Blood for us, the Father would bring Him again from among the dead. The Son came to earth, and became “obedient unto death,” and the Father indeed brought Him again from among the dead. The eternal covenant was kept (“Covenant of Redemption”).

Before we go further, it will be well to look back over the Scripture teaching as to covenants. To make a covenant effective, the parties thereto must be able to fulfill the conditions undertaken. But with fallen man, such fulfillment is unthinkable, impossible. For:

a) Man is a creature, and all the ability must be supplied by God.

b) Man is a fallen creature, and unable to put away his guilt. Therefore the legal covenant of Sinai was, as 2Cor 3:7, 9 says a “ministration of death … condemnation.” It revealed to man his helplessness, but it supplied no strength (yet forgiveness was granted to the obedient, which manifested faith – e.g. Num 15:24-31—NC). We are removed, then, in our consideration of Hebrews 13:20, both from the legal covenant of chapters 8 and 9, and from the future “new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah” (Heb 8:8) because:

a) “The Law (with its covenant) made nothing perfect” (Heb 7:19), and was “disannulled,” “because of its weakness and unprofitableness” (v 18).

b) The “new covenant” to be made with Israel and Judah at our Lord’s return to earth, we have seen is all grace—God’s operation instead of their response (Jer 31:31-24; Ezek 36:24-27; 37:12-14, 21, 23, 25-28). Therefore the “new covenant” which the Hebrew believers to whom Paul was writing had explained to them, was not yet on, nor will be until Christ’s return to earth; and then it will apply to “the house of Israel and the house of Judah,” as God says, in the land of Palestine, with the peculiar earthly blessings described in Scripture.

But—there is yet an eternal covenant, detailed in Hebrews 13:20, in which and according to which Paul knows that all believers may be made perfect in “every good work.” This eternal covenant, in which the God of peace and our Lord Jesus are the Benefactors, and the sheep are the beneficiaries—this covenant is the only covenant which believers should keep in mind as already and eternally fulfilled in its conditions (sacrifice has been made—NC), and available to all.

This is the covenant that was revealed to Paul: “The Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread … in like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in My Blood: this do, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of Me.” This is the Eternal Covenant of which the Lord Jesus is said to be “the Mediator” (9:15), and which is celebrated in the Lord’s Supper, in view of His death, by those benefited forever thereby!


—William R Newell (1868-1956)





MJS devotional excerpt for July 29

“There are various ways in which as saints we are tried, but through all circumstances God is threading our way, occupying Himself with us, our particular characters, etc., to instruct and develop us. What we want is to realize that our Father loves us so much that He has taken such pains to make us ‘partakers of His holiness’ (Heb. 12:10). We are apt not to believe the activity of His love. Some trouble comes on us; our Father has been watching us individually for weeks, months, years; watching us to bring this trouble which He sees is needed.” –Henry Hugh Snell (1817-1892)

“How varied are the ways in which our Father bringeth down and lifteth up! We have to learn the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ in the bright day as well as in the sorrowful day. If He is everything to me in my brightest day there is no fear, but He will be my chief joy in the day of sorrow.” –MJS
http://www.abideabove.com/hungry-heart/


The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, or our trying to be Christ-like, nor is it Christ giving us the power to live a life like His; but it is Christ Himself living His own life through us; 'no longer I, but Christ.’” -MJS
NetChaplain #58020 Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:13 PM
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Hello,

If I understand you correctly, you say that what your present post touches upon "is not essential doctrine," but I would point out that (if I understand the sense of it correctly) it does however, promote a concept which is contrary to essential Scripture doctrine. Please understand that my saying this is not to judge of your own salvation, as I am well aware that true Christians have many times unwittingly promoted positions which are inconsistent with the gospel (for example, Christians who teach (contrary to gospel purity) as though Christ cannot regenerate any unless man takes the first step and gives him his permission &c., might, on their knees however, freely acknowledge before God from their hearts that, "had he not sovereignly interposed with his grace when they were going on in a course of sin, they had perished").

I will attempt an explanation of my charge by addressing various statements from your post.

Quote
The Lord has come and many Gentiles have received Him, but still not many of God’s people have received Him...

I understand the meaning here to be that ethnic Jews, as distinguished from the Gentiles, are "God's people." However, this sentiment which lays the groundwork for what follows, is not the teaching of Scripture:

"...I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God [i.e., true David (being himself very God, and of the line of Judah according to the flesh), meaning Christ and all of His spiritual seed], and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. Now when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. Then said God, Call his name Lo-ammi: for ye are not my people [speaking in this context to physical Israelites], and I will not be your God. Yet the number of the children of Israel [through Christ, who is the true Israel] shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people [i.e., among the Gentiles], there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. ...and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God. Hos. 1:6-10; 2:2

Quote
There are those among “God’s people” who presently believe in God (Jn 14:1 – “believing Israel”), but not in [H]is Son. These He has sur[e]ly saved (still in union but presently out of fellowship), for what is there to be said of the years God has and is dealing with believing Israel; which is saying much more than not believing at all, which has always been the state of the majority of the world. Otherwise a vast majority of the Jews would be lost! There have always been those who believe in God who love Him, thus is the love to them to be finally shunned?

Even devils believe in God, but apart from saving faith in the Son of God, there is no salvation (there is neither union nor fellowship with God, nor actual love to God apart from faith in Christ specifically):

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Jas. 2:19

"WHOSOEVER believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat [i.e., God the Father] loveth him also that is begotten of him [i.e., God the Son, -the meaning being: all that truly love YHWH love Jesus Christ]. ...this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 Jn. 5:1,9-12

Quote
Many I’m sure are not familiar with the fact that God has saved the Israelites who believe in Him, by the same method of Christ’ Blood efficacy, as it was “paid forward” (Act 2:2; Rom 3:25; Heb 9:15-22).

Let us take a look at the suggested passages of Scripture:

"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting." Acts 2:2 (no comment)

[vs. 24, "...Christ Jesus] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God." Romans 3:25

[Note: where faith in Christ's blood is lacking, there is no remission of sins. While it is very true that believers under the Old Covenant had faith in Christ's atoning work as it was preached to them beforehand in the sacrificial system (see next passage below), yet it is not possible to have faith in that propitiating sacrifice (and blood) now having been actually accomplished in time, while at the same time explicitly and purposefully rejecting him who was the sacrifice Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world.]

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." Heb. 9:15-22

None of these places teach that the redemption which was purchased by Christ can be applied to anyone (Jew or Gentile, -whoever having sufficient intellectual capacity to comprehend the gospel message, and so to believe) apart from faith in Christ, -whether as being yet to come (as was the case under the Old Testament) or as having now already come and accomplished redemption through his blood.

Quote
The only time that remains for the return to fellowship of believing Israel (to fellowship, not union which has never been broken) is during the Millennium, when they shall finally see Him and believe (but no son-ship in Christ, just a people of God); and this is when they and the Christians will take part in the “first resurrection” (Rev 20:5).

Union with Christ (and by implication, with God) is not national or ethnic in nature, and so while it is true that believers under the Old Covenant could never fully or finally lose those inward covenant privileges which even they enjoyed (including fellowship with God), yet it is not true that the outward bond of the Covenant (for there was an external covenant "union," which is even now true of the Christian Church) could not be, and was not broken with Israel as an earthly nation, when they fell under unbelief:

"...Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto
me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks. And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD. And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah." Jer. 3:6-11

"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob..." Rom. 11:7-26

Perhaps this is a good point to touch a little upon the eschatological. I do believe (as seems to be implied in the passage quoted immediately above) that God will again show mercy to large numbers of ethnically Jewish people, and for this we may rejoice! And that the time is coming very soon, I doubt not, for even the "Judah" of the Christian west (or the seemingly most faithful remnant of the assemblies of conservatives and evangelicals), very sadly may be described with that same description of Judah given in Jeremiah 3 above. But this re-enlarged mercy to the Jews will not take place in the (now already past) Millennium, but rather, in the beginning of the eastern/worldwide time of the Gentiles, beginning with the reconstitution of the Church at Jerusalem (see Lk. 21:24 with Zech. 14:8 & Ez. 47:1-12).

Furthermore, our Jewish friends will experience these blessings only as fellow sons and (therefore) joint heirs with Christ and along with the Gentile fellow believers. There is no blessing or inheritance for sinners outside of Christ, who is the first born among many brethren (who's the inheritance is) and in whom (as a spiritual seed) all believers are adopted and receive also the inheritance along with the blessings of sonship. The true "Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16) is the saints (Jew and Gentile alike), and this is what is meant in the passage quoted above (Romans 11:26) when it says: "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."

The "first resurrection" is nothing other than regeneration -see Jn. 5:21-27 (although this should be taken in a way not to exclude subsequent revivals of the Christian as well, -all of which are effects of having been regenerated and of the "seed remaining in us"). Obtaining Christ and a Triune God in regeneration is that one thing needful if we would escape the second death (Rev. 20:4-6). The numbers of those that were regenerated during the Millenium (during which -though Satan, or the primary representative of the evil one on earth -the pagan magistrate- was bound; yet many if not all of the hindrances and opposition of Babylon and of Antichrist still continued) was nothing in comparison with what will come about very quickly in that final hundred years or so, which will follow after the destruction of Babylon and the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary (at the time of reconstitution), when "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him." (Dn. 7:27. -See also Dn. 2:34-35 &c.).

For a proper understanding of Scripture Covenant Theology (with its two distinct outward administrations, -the Old and the New), see the Westminster Standards. Perhaps I will have time to take that topic up at a later date, but I think I have written enough for now.

To give a quick summary before closing:

1. (Concerning those having sufficient ability to comprehend the gospel): There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Christ (this is essential doctrine, which we must never allow to be corrupted or in any way downplayed).

2. The true Israel of God consists of Jewish ("the Jew first") and Gentile believers both, being gathered together into one body and bride of Christ.

Nahum #58026 Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Hello,

If I understand you correctly, you say that what your present post touches upon "is not essential doctrine," but I would point out that (if I understand the sense of it correctly) it does however, promote a concept which is contrary to essential Scripture doctrine.
Hi, and thanks for the reply! Essential doctrine is that which teaches how to be saved (faith in Christ); nonessential doctrine it that which teaches growth in your faith in Christ.

For now, I just want to post this from John Gill:

"But I will utterly take them away;" out of their land, from being a kingdom and nation, which was done by Shalmaneser, another king of Assyria, 2 Kings 17:6, or, "bringing I will bring into them," or "against them" {w}; that is, an enemy, the same king of Assyria: or, "but forgetting I will forget them" {x}, as some render it, and remember them no more, till the fulness of time comes: or, "through pardoning I have pardoned," or "spared them" {y}; that is, in times past. The Targum is, "but if they return, pardoning I will pardon them;" which will be done in the latter day.

Last edited by NetChaplain; Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:55 AM.

The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, or our trying to be Christ-like, nor is it Christ giving us the power to live a life like His; but it is Christ Himself living His own life through us; 'no longer I, but Christ.’” -MJS
NetChaplain #58031 Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:15 PM
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Quote
Essential doctrine is that which teaches how to be saved (faith in Christ); nonessential doctrine it that which teaches growth in your faith in Christ.

So we agree that apart from faith in Christ there is no salvation for anyone, whether Jew or Gentile. Very good!

Nahum #58032 Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Quote
Essential doctrine is that which teaches how to be saved (faith in Christ); nonessential doctrine it that which teaches growth in your faith in Christ.

So we agree that apart from faith in Christ there is no salvation for anyone, whether Jew or Gentile. Very good!
To go to heaven and be in the son-ship of Christ you have to be a Christian. God has His plan different for the Jews believing in Him but not in His Son; but they will believe when they see Him, which is too late for the "blessing" (Jhn 20:29) of son-ship, but not for being the "people of God" still.


The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, or our trying to be Christ-like, nor is it Christ giving us the power to live a life like His; but it is Christ Himself living His own life through us; 'no longer I, but Christ.’” -MJS
NetChaplain #58036 Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:21 PM
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Originally Posted by NetChaplain
God has His plan different for the Jews believing in Him but not in His Son; but they will believe when they see Him, which is too late for the "blessing" (Jhn 20:29) of son-ship, but not for being the "people of God" still.
John 3:36 (KJV) 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:23 (KJV) 23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

1 John 5:12 (KJV) 12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Galatians 3:29 (KJV) 29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

It seems more than clear that the true "people of God" are those who are united with Christ via repentance and faith and thus are adopted as the true "sons of God". ALL others are under the just judgment and wrath of God and have no love of God toward them. ELECT Jews and ELECT Gentiles = the Church, the 'bride of Christ' whom are recipients of God's eternal mercy and grace. There are no other "people of God" outside the Church which are those called by the Spirit from Adam to the last man who is effectually called by the Spirit of Christ.


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Pilgrim #58037 Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim
It seems more than clear that the true "people of God" are those who are united with Christ via repentance and faith and thus are adopted as the true "sons of God". ALL others are under the just judgment and wrath of God and have no love of God toward them. ELECT Jews and ELECT Gentiles = the Church, the 'bride of Christ' whom are recipients of God's eternal mercy and grace. There are no other "people of God" outside the Church which are those called by the Spirit from Adam to the last man who is effectually called by the Spirit of Christ.
I wouldn't think God, after 4 millennia dealing with the Israelites who believe in Him (Jhn 14:1), but not yet in Jesus, has nothing for them. Israel is still in His plans for what He has for them, just not heaven nor son-ship, but still a people of God.

It is a bit difficult to see in Scripture that He is going to save them too but I believe He is being a bit secretive about it. There's too much importance about Israel to think God would allow the majority of them perish with the world. I think that the Bible itself is quite a testament to His people; considering 90% of it is Jewish!


The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, or our trying to be Christ-like, nor is it Christ giving us the power to live a life like His; but it is Christ Himself living His own life through us; 'no longer I, but Christ.’” -MJS

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