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Tom #58442 Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:10 AM
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All one had/has to do is to do a little research on the main proponents of The Gospel Coalition to know that it is a bad, heretical organization. For example:

- Who Are the New Calvinists- part 1
- Who Are the New Calvinists- part 2
- [Tim] Keller's False Gospel

Do a little research on some of the 'significant' others, e.g., Kevin DeYoung, D.A. Carson, John Piper, John Mahaffey, et al.

Here's a recent blurb, written yesterday, March 2 concerning what the TGC has come under fire for in regard to an article "Comparing Christ’s Love to a Sexual Encounter". Here's the report:

Quote
An article recently published by The Gospel Coalition’s newly formed Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics has been the subject of considerable criticism for its description of sex as a metaphor for the salvific relationship between Christ and the Church.

The article, titled “Sex Won’t Save You (But It Points to the One Who Will),” was written by Keller Center fellow Josh Butler, an Arizona pastor and author. The article is an excerpt from Butler’s forthcoming book, “Beautiful Union: How God’s Vision for Sex Points Us to the Good, Unlocks the True, and (Sort of) Explains Everything.”

In the excerpt, Butler argues that while many within the current cultural climate look “to sex for salvation…idolizing sex results in slavery.”

“Sex wasn’t designed to be your salvation but to point you to the One who is,” Butler writes.
TGC Under Fire for Article Comparing Christ’s Love to a Sexual Encounter


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That article was a mockery of the faith. What are these guys thinking. Twitter is having a blast tearing it a part. Not many are qualified to have such platforms. They just need to keep silent already, especially Keller. I have no patience for him. Just stop talking, stop tweeting, and stop listening to your even more liberal wife. Enough already.

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A deep dive into the influences and foundations of American law (including founders’ views on a well ordered society where sin and decay does not overcome peace & the common good is essential, especially in light of the specter of a rogue and co-opted/corrupted system that is applying an anti-natural, tyrannical ruling philosophy under the guise of legitimacy and expediency. Opinions divorced from reality are an automatic disqualifier in my book.

I consider myself a presuppositionalist (even before I ever knew who Van Til was) for the mere fact that most of my classical defenses for Christianity are swiftly dismissed or reasoned away in my personal experience. That doesn’t mean I agree with everything VanTil has said (although when properly presented I think he’s pretty brilliant). I do think non-believers/practical atheists can know and do good, productive things to some degree, they just have a woefully incomplete picture of where good comes from and the greater/greatest good (Psalm 14:1). In addition, their motives are usually off. But so are our motives when our faith is not in exercise.

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Pilgrim

The key words I used were
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used to

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But there may others who do consider TGC a solid, reliable organization. wink Being informed is a valuable asset and part of one growing in wisdom.


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It’s also important to know that agents of change do not only exist in the political and cultural sphere, but also in the religious sphere. Once again, consider Machen and Old Princeton which was essentially high jacked by the Federal Council of Churches in 1908 to push the Social Gospel/the Progressive movement as summarized in their The Social Creed of the Churches. If I’m following the history right, the Higher Critics were influential in all this. I’m sure there are various parallels with what the PCA and others are experiencing on the denominational side. There’s surely some concentrated influencing and organization behind the scenes in these kind of power struggles. These entities remain highly active today. There are various ways to fundamentally and radically transform society. A fallen citizenry, even a blinded denominational assembly, is ripe for manipulation and ultimately destruction and history keeps on repeating…

“ John D. Rockefeller, Jr., and the Interchurch World Movement of 1919–1920: A Different Angle on the Ecumenical Movement 1982
Abstract: There is a certain irony in the title of Eldon G. Ernst’s Moment of Truth for Protestant America, the standard interpretation of the Interchurch World Movement (IWM) of 1919–1920, because this broad and generally perceptive study of the IWM is based primarily upon an elaborate falsification of the historical record. That falsification was perpetrated in a document entitled “History of the Interchurch World Movement” prepared under the direction of Raymond B. Fosdick. Fosdick, who was the lawyer and long-term adviser of John D. Rockefeller, Jr., had the document compiled precisely to conceal the real role Rockefeller played in the organization. Research in Rockefeller’s papers reveals the truth about his role and thereby illumines a significant aspect of the ecumenical movement and its relationship to wider historical trends. This overlooked aspect from the background of the liberal side of the fundamentalist controversy is particularly pertinent today as tensions mount between those who identify themselves as “liberals” and those who claim to lead a “moral majority” of resurgent conservatism. Perhaps Washington Gladden, the old social gospel advocate, was not entirely wrong when he referred to a Rockefeller contribution as “tainted money,” however idealistic Rockefeller’s motives may have been.”

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Keller is confused.

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Anthony, I know you asked Pilgrim not me for his take on the video. However, I hope you do not mind me saying a few things.

I found the broadcast ‘The New Fault Lines’ to be done quite well.

I like Dr.Voddie Baucham and some of the people they mentioned as being faithful.
Before all these controversies such as Cultural Marxism and its ugly stepsisters started gaining prominence, Voddie Baucham was speaking on them. I have watched about 5 of his sermons on the issues and read a few of his books, such as Fault Lines and I am thankful to the Lord that I did.
Cultural Marxism starting to rear its ugly head before Covid-19; which I believe the WEF is using to further their global cause/s.

I have my differences with John MacArthur; but I certainly appreciate his stand and support for pastors up here in Canada, who were jailed for keeping their Churches open.

Dr. RC Sproul, was actually my favourite theologian and I believe they correctly showed what he would be saying if he was still around.

I agree with their take on Tim Keller and I could add even more concerns.

When they described John Piper as naive; that is something I have been thinking about him for many years now. At one time Piper was a favourite of mine and that was for good reason. When he is on, his messages were really good. However, that has been a number of years now and I don’t bother listening to him anymore.

They spoke very highly of Doug Wilson and in a few issues, I can see why. He is not afraid to call it like it is and although I do not listen to him personally. I am told he says some of the same things on the issues of our day that someone like Voddie Baucham would say.
Let me say however, the interviewer said he is a Post-Millennial and although I am Amil, I have friends who are and we are in agreement on most things. However, Doug Wilson is not only Post-Mill, unless I am mistaken he is also a Theonomist. Perhaps the interviewer is also a Theonomist?

Theonomy by the way has become a rather nuanced term is recent years. Some call themselves Theonomists simply because they believe in the “Law of God” and that is how they explain themselves. When you tell them the way they are using the term, is confusing because it makes a others think they are “Reconstructionists” in the line of Rushdoony. To which they state (rather defensively), that it is I that doesn’t understand Theonomy; because all Reformed Christians believe in the ‘Law of God’. That particularly discussion quickly becomes fruitless.

Others, take many of the things that Rushdoony and Bahnsen said concerning Theonomy and put their own spin on them. Then when you point them to an article written by Sam Waldron, about his concerns with ‘Theonomy’. They get a bit mad and state that, Waldron is addressing something that is for the most part no longer an issue.

As I mentioned before I think I lean towards the same views that Sam Waldron believes. He holds to the same kind of Two Kingdom Theology that John Calvin held to.

The interviewer, never mentioned this kind of Two Kingdom Theology. Rather he mentioned what is commonly referred to as Radical Two Kingdom Theology; which he attributed to Dr. Michael Horton and someone by the name of David VanDrunen.

The problem I am having is most people seem to believe Calvin’s Two Kingdom Theology and Radical Two Kingdom Theology are one and the same.

Tom

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Thanks for the feedback Tom! I deleted my post cause I feel like I was getting a little carried away and getting away from the main topic a little. But guys like Wilson, Keller, Piper…. I’ve written them off (I was never too influenced by them to begin with). That whole celebrity scene (outside of the late RC Sproul) has imploded.

I’ve been thinking about these somewhat related issues for a while however. I don’t want to sound like I’m buttering up the host but I think Pilgrim has the best take regarding the American history side of things (among many other things). The folks in my closest circles are similar in view and don’t get caught up in any of this natural law / 2K / common grace nonsense that is essentially a big sideshow in response to theonomists. I looked into some good reviews on David VanDrunen and they kinda exposed him as a bit of novelty. I’m not beholden to any of those listed celebrity preachers with the exception of Voddie who I really admire. But I’m pretty blessed to have Lane Tipton as my pastor. I just love the guy (but not in a putting him on a pedestal kind of way) and I’m pretty happy in my denomination so I don’t have to get too caught up in this stuff even though I do sometimes.

Im really disappointed with both sides of this 2K vs. Nationalism debate but I do think the Church should get their act together and have a unified voice against all this nonsense and propaganda from the outside. Im really disappointed in guys like RS Clark who latches himself to lesser movements that they have pretty much tweaked to their liking with some creative scriptural justification and a little revisionist history and now they are pridefully committed. It’s kind of sad seeing these internal battles while the world around us is falling apart. (At the end of the day I don’t know enough about anything to be too critical of anyone but it hasn’t stopped me before).

Side Note: Tipton has been down on the 2k/Natural Law guys too especially for their promotion of Thomism and the Great Tradition despite the fact that he shares a platform with DG Hart who is great on Machen but out there with Clark a bit. I liked following Clark’s blog and thought he was ok against theonomy but I’m not buying his peculiar view and framing/promotion of 2KT-Natural Law. Again, I think they are taking some liberties.

I like this review and a few others….

Quote
VanDrunen also argues that the state is also a common kingdom institution. Although it is not part of the redemptive kingdom, those in the redemptive kingdom still owe obedience to the civil magistrate (p. 121). VanDrunen adds: “Furthermore, the New Testament never indicates that civil authorities have any responsibility to make the social or political order conform to the redemptive kingdom of heaven. What Christians are to expect from the state is simply the enforcement of justice so that they may lead a ‘peaceful and quiet life’” (p. 121). The significant question here, however, is this: who has the authority and right to instruct the civil magistrate on the nature of true justice and call him to repentance when it is violated? Under the Old Covenant, it was the prophets, who were ministers in the redemptive kingdom, the Old Covenant church. Who has this calling under the New Covenant? Given that two kingdoms advocates have such a high view of the ministry of the Word, it seems odd that they would imply that this responsibility rests on individual Christians rather than the Church and her ministers. …


What Aspects of Education, Vocation, and Politics are Matters of Christian Liberty?

VanDrunen’s final chapter is likely to cause more consternation among most readers than anything he has said in the previous chapters. In this final chapter he draws some practical conclusions concerning education, vocation, and politics from two kingdoms theology. However, since many of his conclusions have more to do with Christian liberty than anything else, I am not convinced that all or even most of his conclusions are distinctive of two kingdoms doctrine. Many of his conclusions could be held by Reformed Christians at any place along the Christianity/Culture spectrum. …


Both vocation and politics are matters of the common kingdom according to VanDrunen. Christian political activity should not be seen as an instrument for transforming the world into Christ’s kingdom (p. 195). VanDrunen lists five truths regarding politics that are generally non-controversial among contemporary Reformed Christians: 1). The civil magistrate has been established by God; 2). The magistrate is primarily responsible for keeping order and enforcing justice; 3). Christians have many obligations toward magistrates, such as submission; 4). Christians may serve in political offices; and 5). The state’s authority is limited (p. 197). Elaborating on the fifth point, VanDrunen explains that the state does not have the authority to promote what is evil. Of course, this raises important questions: who has the authority to instruct the magistrate about what is evil if not the church? Who has the duty to tell the magistrate if it steps over the line into evil if not the church? In connection with the family, VanDrunen argues that the church, rather than parents, has the authority to minister God’s Word. Why would the same principle not hold when dealing with the magistrate? I raise this question because I have heard two kingdoms advocates say that the German church under the Nazi government, for example, did not have any mandate to condemn that government’s evil actions. Individual Christians could do so, but not the church. I don’t know if such a statement is typical of all two kingdoms advocates, but if it is, it indicates the presence of a deep-seated problem.

Conclusion

Two kingdoms theology as presented by David VanDrunen offers many helpful insights into the issue of the Christian’s relation to culture. It also raises many helpful questions that all believers should consider. VanDrunen’s presentation suffers, however, from a lack of clear biblical support for some of his most important claims and from confusion on some key theological issues. VanDrunen is right in his rejection of theonomy and in his rejection of the misguided practice of confusing Christianity with civil religion (American or otherwise). He is not always demonstrably right in the solutions he offers. I am thankful to VanDrunen for writing this highly challenging and provocative book. It has made me think, and although I cannot always agree with his conclusions, I believe that this is an important discussion among brothers in Christ. I pray that this review article is a constructive contribution in the discussion and that it is received in that way. https://www.ligonier.org/learn/arti...avid-vandrunens-living-gods-two-kingdoms

https://secundumscripturas.com/2013/03/06/a-critique-of-van-drunens-two-kingdoms/


Note: Im trying to be charitable, so when I use the term 2k, I acknowledge the fact that there are many who view the modern adherents as Radical 2kers. I think of them as conceiving a Revised 2k for our present context. I fear they are deferring/defaulting to a secular “neutral” state that is anything but….

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That is somewhat helpful of the 2K position that VanDrunen espouses.
As I indicated however, it is not the 2K that people like John Calvin espoused and which Sam Waldron pointed me to research.

VanDrunen's view does however seem to be the view that the Gospel Coalition Canada embraces and who condemn Churches that stayed open during lockdowns. Pilgrim did a good job of critiquing that aspect.

As for 2K vs 1K, in some ways there appears to be extremes on both sides and sometimes when I look at the 2K of Calvin and the 1K of many, is practical working out these things, it seems like semantics.

I have a good Reformed Baptist friend, who says he is definitely 1K. How he explains his view and how it should be worked out. In many ways, reminded me of a sermon by Sam Waldron on Romans 13 and Sam Is definitely 2K. So go figure.


Tom

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