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#58511 Wed Apr 12, 2023 8:15 PM
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Tom Online Content OP
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I have a question that stems from a book I am reading.
Quote
Is the ultimate goal a Christian nation or a nation of Christians?”
James Emery White
Both White and Lutzer say the later should be in view.
(Page 52 ‘No Reason to Hide’ Erwin Lutzer

Quote
Christianity is not a political religion; although it has political ramifications.
Erwin Lutzer

I showed these quotes to a Christian friend and he said: “same thing”.

Are they the same and why?

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Wed Apr 12, 2023 8:16 PM.
Tom #58512 Wed Apr 12, 2023 9:29 PM
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That would depend upon one's eschatology. If you are a Postie the for sure you expect the an outpouring of the Spirit and the transformation of the majority of people which will make, e.g., America a theocracy. If you are of the Amil persuasion, then it is the proclamation of the Gospel that is the primary calling so that God's elect will come to faith and be separate from this wicked world because there is no promise of a "Golden Age" but rather a "New Heaven and New Earth" after God destroys this present world. Of course, if you are a Premiller, then you look forward to the physical nation of Israel to be a great theocratic nation, etc., etc. Personally, don't agree with either of the two choices given in the question. rofl All things are moving toward destruction and there never will be a "Christian Nation". Nor there ever be a "Nation of Christians". But what there will be is a remnant but which no man can number who will be redeemed by the sovereign calling and work of the Spirit who will be persecuted and even be killed for the faith in this present age. Yet, they know that "in my Father's house there are many mansions" and on the New Earth, righteousness will dwell we will see Him 'face to face" and we shall not remember any of the sorrows, pain, suffering nor guilt of sin ever. joy


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Pilgrim #58513 Wed Apr 12, 2023 11:54 PM
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As I read what Erwin Lutzer said. I do not think he is talking about eschatology.
I do know that my friend is Amil.

I think what the quotes are referring to is making disciples. Seeing how both a Calvinists, it would seem that they know that for someone to come to faith, they must first have been elected from the foundations of the world and regenerated in order to repent and believe.

As I think about the foundations of both Canada and the USA. It is unmistakeable that although they are not "Christian Nations". Never the less, it is clear from history and their foundation documents, that they were founded on the Judeo-Christian ethic. This is clear, even by the writing of at least one of the Deist founders (Thomas Jefferson?) of the USA. I do not have the writing in front of me, however, when I read it, the words almost jumped off the page. I was struck how even he understood the importance of having an objective standard (the Bible) to base the Constitution on.

My friend actually said to me since then. We are not talking about eschatology, we are talking about what constitutes a "Christian Nation". He believes that all of us who care about people, should be salt and light, and as such regardless of if it happens or not, we should want a nation full of Christians, which in his opinion, if that happened would make it a Christian nation.

Pilgrim #58514 Thu Apr 13, 2023 2:40 AM
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Pilgrim, your description of a 'postie' as a theocracy is the theonomy idea of the postmillennialism. I do not find that in the post-mil writers I've read from centuries past. I personally consider theonomy a heresy just as dispensationalist make their future millennium a return to the Old Covenant. John Gill was a historic pre-mil but he also taught a "Spiritual Reign" of Christ which he in part describes in a manner that I understand the growth of the body of Christ, my understanding of the time between the 1st and 2nd advent.

"1a4. There will be one faith, one doctrine of faith or system of truths, which will be preached and professed by all; there will be no more an Arian, a Socinian, a Pelagian and Arminian, or any other heterodox person; as there will be but one Lord, "his name" will be "one", one religion professed by all that name the name of Christ; they will be all of one accord, of one mind, #Zec 14:9.

1a5. The gospel will have a greater spread than now; at present it lies in a narrow compass, chiefly in the isles, very little on the continent; and in the countries where it is, it is but in few places there; but hereafter many will run to and fro, and knowledge, evangelical knowledge, will be increased; the earth shall be full of it, as the waters cover the sea; the angel, or a set of gospel ministers, shall have it to preach to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. Those "living waters", the doctrines of grace, which are the means of quickening sinners and enlivening saints, "shall go out from Jerusalem", the church of God; "half of them towards the former", or eastern "sea", and "half of them towards the hinder" or western "sea"; that is, they shall go east and west, even into all parts; "in summer and in winter shall it be"; these waters shall be always flowing, or these doctrines constantly and continually preached, #Da 12:4 Isa 11:9 Re 14:6 Zec 14:8.

1a6. The gospel will be preached with greater success; there will be no more such complaints, as "Who hath believed our report?" the report of the gospel will be generally believed; and "to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?" the power of God will go along with the word, to the conversion of multitudes; who, to the great surprise of the church, will "fly as a cloud" for number; so that there shall scarce be room enough in the church for them; and it will be said, "The place is too strait for me, give place to me that I may dwell"; the place of her tent must be enlarged, the curtains of her habitation stretched forth, and her cords lengthened, since she shall break forth on the right hand and on the left, and her seed shall inherit the Gentiles, #Isa 49:18-20 #Isa 54:2,3 60:4-8."

In reply to Tom, I'd agree that the gospel strives for a "nation of Christians", not a Christian nation. In theonomy I see a new inquisition, and a problem as developed among the Puritans who came to Plymouth Rock and set up a theocracy. A theocracy as a particular denomination constructs it is why they left Europe for the new world.


Holding to the 1644/1646 First London Confession of Faith including the Appendix, particularly Sect. IX and X

I am in agreement with John Gill's Confession of faith:
https://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/johngilldeclarationoffaith.htm

I hold to New Covenant Theology and the full doctrines of grace; TULIP
Tom #58515 Thu Apr 13, 2023 7:09 AM
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What I believe is that one's eschatology will influence one's view on the question. My rejection of both choices comes from my theology and eschatology. smile I have absolutely no doubt that Scripture teaches that the overwhelming majority of people from Adam to the last to be born will be enemies of God and judged accordingly. And, there was, is and always will be a remnant who will be saved by grace, albeit their actual number will be great. Yes, I have often said here and elsewhere for years that the USA and Canada and every other nation of the world has been pagan, i.e., there never has been nor ever will be on this present earth a "Christian nation", IMO. And I have been quite clear that from what I've read of the founding fathers of the USA, much that developed here and what has provided the freedoms (more or less) enjoyed here which exceed all other nations of the world were based on a Judeo-Christian ethic. Ironically, this is also, I believe, why greater judgment will fall upon America which has mostly not only rejected God but also those founding moral and civil precepts originally embraced.

Israel wasn't, of course, a "Christian nation" but it was a theocracy. And, my eschatology dictates that it was the "church in the wilderness", i.e., both visible and invisible. The majority of Israel perished in unbelief while a remnant was preserved by the providential power and grace of God. And, Israel was to reveal to us first of all that regardless of the outward manifestations and beneficence and patience of God, the natural man will have nothing to do with Him but loves sin beyond comprehension. It is only if God personally takes hold of a person and regenerates the soul by divine power and preserves the new man that is (re)created in righteousness and knowledge of truth (Eph 4:24) that one can be called a Christian. LOTS of religiousity in America, although it is diminishing rapidly, but it is not biblical Christianity. Thus, there is no and never will be a "Christian nation" here nor a "nation of Christians". It isn't that there couldn't be, but has God revealed in His written infallible Word that there will be? I conclude it is not the will of God for this present world, but there will be a Christian nation comprised of Christians only on the New Earth. BigThumbUp


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Pilgrim #58516 Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim
What I believe is that one's eschatology will influence one's view on the question. My rejection of both choices comes from my theology and eschatology. smile I have absolutely no doubt that Scripture teaches that the overwhelming majority of people from Adam to the last to be born will be enemies of God and judged accordingly. And, there was, is and always will be a remnant who will be saved by grace, albeit their actual number will be great....

Pilgrim, you mention a "remnant", but I do not see that word applied to the church of Jesus Christ in the NT. The only time I see "remnant" it is referring to Israel in Rom. 9:27; 11:5 - ASV, RSV, REB & Weymouth. I see the prophecies about the church in the OT to indicate a overwhelming coming to God at some point in the gospel era.

I find the following statement of Jesus addressed to the Jews -

"For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matt 7:14 RSV)

In the next chapter he remarks about Gentiles -

"When Jesus heard him, he marveled, and said to those who followed him, 'Truly, I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such faith. I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.'” (Matt 8:10-12 RSV)

That is how I, as a post-mil, see the question of the few or the many. In Rev. 5:9, Weymouth uses the word "some", but I do not find that means few or a remnant as I understand the word.

"And now they sing a new song. 'It is fitting,' they say', "that Thou shouldst be the One to take the book And break its seals; Because Thou hast been offered in sacrifice, And hast purchased for God with Thine own blood Some out of every tribe and language and people and nation,'" (Rev 5:9 Weymouth)

Not to be argumentative, but this is how I see the question of "few" or "many" regarding the number of the elect. I admit, I am influenced greatly by the men of God out of the past, since the Reformation, many of whom were post-mil. This is how I view this point from my post-mil understanding. I may have not gotten the smiley face properly placed.


Holding to the 1644/1646 First London Confession of Faith including the Appendix, particularly Sect. IX and X

I am in agreement with John Gill's Confession of faith:
https://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/johngilldeclarationoffaith.htm

I hold to New Covenant Theology and the full doctrines of grace; TULIP
DiscipleEddie #58517 Thu Apr 13, 2023 10:13 AM
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We will have to agree to disagree on this matter. The crux of the matter is our different hermeneutical principles and obviously the subject of "types and shadows and prophetical fulfillment". grin


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Pilgrim #58518 Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:02 PM
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Pilgrim
I think I need to say that what you said about the Postmillennialism view is not correct. They do not believe in a theocracy.
That would be a Postmillennial view, mixed with Theonomy.

Apparently, in recent years many who claim to be Theonomists, are not of the same variety of someone such as Rushdoony, or Baunsen.
I personally find them calling themselves “Theonomists”, is confusing at best.
However, I am finding it necessary to ask them to define their terms.
Otherwise, any further discussion becomes meaningless.

Tom

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Yeh, I know the fine differences between "Theonomy" and historic Postmillennialism. However, the majority of Theonomists are Postmilleniallists. Postmillennialism holds to the "Golden Age" within the literal thousand year "millennial age". In that 'golden age' there will be a massive conversion of populations to Christianity. Doubtless, with this view, surely this would result in many of these alleged converts occupying seats in the political arena and rule via the laws of God as their guide. This to me isn't too dissimilar to "Theonomy". Of course, I outright reject any such view(s). Now if you want to spend time nitpicking over terms, that's fine. But I have no desire to be involved since it would be an exercise in futility on my part. grin


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DiscipleEddie #58520 Thu Apr 13, 2023 11:27 PM
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DescipleEddie

Seeing you said you held to Postmillennialism.
I have a few questions for you.
You and I both agree, that not all Postmillennialists are Theonomists.
Am I correct?

Would you then as a Postmillennial believe in a “Golden Age” like Pilgrim described it?
He indicated that that sounds very similar to Theonomy.

Would you agree with his assessment? Why or why not?

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Thu Apr 13, 2023 11:30 PM.
Tom #58521 Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:44 AM
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Tom, yes I believe theonomists are postmil, but theonomy is relatively new and not the major belief in the postmillennialism of the past, and some today, as myself.

I am compelled to keep in mind the verse, "So we are always confident; even though we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight." (2Cor 5:6-7 NRSV), when I ponder eschatology. I recognize what a godless mess we see in the USA today and the world in general, but I cannot say where this fits into God's plan. Is today similar to that situation just prior to Martin Luther and the Reformation? Or, are we in that little season after the millennium when Satan is loosed to do his wickedness? Now, the verses that compel me to the postmil position are:

In Acts 2:34-35 I read "‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” and that happened at the ascension. Then at the end of the millennium, we read in Acts 15:24-25 "Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."

I see Jesus reigning and being successful over "all his enemies" so I must conclude that Jesus Christ takes dominion by the gospel. I see the time frame as represented in John 5:28-29, the 1st century until the 2nd coming. I find the prophecies of Christ in the OT indicating that Christ will have dominion over the entire world, which I can only understand as He is victorious over Satan. I'll give a few in the following passages,

"May he have dominion from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. May his foes bow down before him, and his enemies lick the dust." Psa 72:7-11
"In days to come the mountain of the LORD’s house shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be raised above the hills; all the nations shall stream to it." Isa. 2:2-4
"Wide will be the dominion and boundless the peace bestowed on David’s throne and on his kingdom" Isa 9:6-7 REB
"But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth." Dan. 2:35
"Say to God, “How awesome are your deeds! Because of your great power, your enemies cringe before you. All the earth worships you; they sing praises to you, sing praises to your name.” Selah Ps 66:3-4
The parable in Luke 13:18-19 where I do not see a hint that the mustard tree grows for a while and then deteriorates.

I wonder if the disciples of the 1st century could see our world, would they consider it a "Golden Age"?

Advancements seem to have followed the embrace of the Bible and Christ, gospel over the entire globe.
Electricity harnessed and used for man's use, lights, motors, heat, travel, etc.
Nuclear power
Vaccines that can protect against dangerous diseases and cure others
Heart transplants
Computers and AI
Jet travel crossing the USA in 4 hours or fly to the other side of the world in 24 hours
Instant communication around the world, available on individuals through mobile phones
The freedom of travel long distance our individually own cars give us
Xrays, MRI and CatScans to look inside the body in medicine
GPS locating system to within a yard or so
Men in the International Space station and a man walking on the moon
Vast knowledge at our fingertips online, Britannica, Wikipedia, etc.

I SEE NOTHING IN SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT THERE IS TO BE A THEOCRACY TODAY.

In my signature I write something as being mildly postmil. I just do not know how literal to take some of the OT prophecies, but I am convinced that Paul would be amazed at our day. I would probably be considered more in the New Covenant theology camp, so theonomy is to me heretical and a violation of,

"For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." (Gal 5:1 NRSV)

I am NOT antinomian because I recognize God's law has existed from creation and continues under the gospel. I see the substance of the Ten Commandments found before Moses existed and now in the age of the gospel. Of course we do NOT mix law and gospel and I'm with the Lutherans on that. On timing I suppose I am the same as an amil, but as to the success of the gospel over the world, I'm postmil.


Holding to the 1644/1646 First London Confession of Faith including the Appendix, particularly Sect. IX and X

I am in agreement with John Gill's Confession of faith:
https://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/johngilldeclarationoffaith.htm

I hold to New Covenant Theology and the full doctrines of grace; TULIP

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