Horeb and Westminster

The Highway

In Deuteronomy 5 :3 it says : "The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers,but with us,even us,who are all of us here alive this day"

WCF 19:1-2 says the opposite- that Adam was under this law before it was given.

I REALLY need help on this......please

Hmm. Confusing isn't it?

I think it is worth looking at what God commanded Adam too. He told him not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, for if he ate of it he would surely die.

That 'knowledge' although it appeared attractive and 'to be desired to make one wise' actually caused mankind to die. It became a 'ministration of death' to him.

Such is the law. That tree was a picture of the law. Likewise the Tree of life was a picture of Christ, of grace in the Gospel.

So if the tree which Adam ate of was a picture of law, and he was commanded NOT to eat of it, then the command given to Adam seems to be the complete opposite of the covenant made with Israel at Sinai. Adam was told not to go that way. Of course the law given to Israel was given to them to prove to them the same lesson which Adam learned - that the law only fuels sin, and the consequence of sin is death. That man's greatest need is to be delivered from sin, from death, from hell, from Satan, by Christ, who died for His people to bring them through death into everlasting life. Man's greatest need is to eat of the Tree of Life.

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That 'knowledge' although it appeared attractive and 'to be desired to make one wise' actually caused mankind to die. It became a 'ministration of death' to him.

Such is the law. That tree was a picture of the law. Likewise the Tree of life was a picture of Christ, of grace in the Gospel.

Rank eisogesis! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" /> Where in all of Scripture is it to be found that the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was a "ministration of death"? Where is it written that God's prohibition to Adam was a "ministration of death"? Where is it written that the "tree was a picture of the law."? Egads man.. to what length will you go to promote your Antinomianism? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />

Any Presbyterian Pastors care to deal with this please ?

I'm sure Joe could help when he returns. Meanwhile....

Are the words "covenant" and "command" one and the same ?

I still cannot see that WCF 19:1-2 in refering to Genesis 1:26 and 2:17 is one and the same "covenant" as that delivered at Horeb .

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Pilgrim said:

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Just a moment Pilgrim! Don't be quite so swift to scorn my comments.

The Tree of Life is widely ackowledged to symbolise Christ. But where in scripture does it specically say "the tree of life is Christ"? It doesn't. It is picked up on in Revelation and symbolically that is its meaning, but it isn't stated (much like other imagery in Revelation - we need the Spirit to lead us into the truth of it).

So we can't expect a statement in scripture telling us 'The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a symbol of ****'. No, we understand it by the Spirit, and by what is obvious from the meaning.

The tree was a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Well what else tells gives us knowledge of good and evil? The law does. And when Adam ate of that tree sin entered, and death by sin. He was condemned. Well, the law does the same thing! Romans 7:9 tells us "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died". Just like Adam's experience, isn't it?

Now, where do we read of the 'ministration of death' and the 'ministration of condemnation'? In 2 Corinthians 3:7,9. This is a reference to the law, the Ten Commandments, engraven in stone. Agreed? And that law was done away with, 3:11 agreed? Why? Because is is exceeded in glory by the ministration of the spirit, of righteousness, 3:8,9, which is the New Covenant, the Gospel of Christ.

So scripture tells us that the law is a ministration of death. The law sets forth knowledge of good and evil, and by it it slays, it condemns man. Just like the tree which Adam ate of.

The main purpose of the law is to show to man his sin, condemn him, and through its shadows and types of the Gospel (as seen by the sacrifices and priesthood) point him away from the works of the law unto Christ. So the law acts as a ministration of death to man to bring him to the point where he cries out to God for mercy through the death and sacrifice of the Lord Jesus. In other words once slain by the law, man needs to go to Christ - the tree of life. The cermonial aspects of the law in its imagery picture the Gospel, but the precepts of the law are a knowledge of good and evil, by which man is condemned because he is a sinner. It finds him out.

You may not agree with my interpretaion, but one thing it isn't, is far fetched. The obvious connections of truths here are there to be seen.

And it sure isn't Antinomianism. I love the law, but I know the effect it has, not because it is faulty (Oh no! It is holy, just and good - Romans 7:12), but because we all have sin in us, in our flesh, believer or unbeliever, as Romans 7 explains:-

"For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."

You see there is nothing wrong with the law, it is what the law produces in man that is the trouble - the fruit of it is death. And there was nothing wrong with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but the eating of its fruit brought death. What we need, like Adam is to eat of the Tree of Life - Christ, in whom is eternal life.

When I began my introduction to C T ,several Christian friends advised me that I would have problems with the WCF, especially Chapter 19. This was nearly a year ago and I think I can see what they meant.

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And there was nothing wrong with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but the eating of its fruit brought death.

Yes, I still disagree with your "interpretation" and see it as nothing less than rank eisogesis. It is based upon one speculation upon another. And you added that one comes to understand these things "by the Spirit".

And how many present-day fanatics, e.g., Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, and every Premil Pretrib Dispy "prophet" has come to "understand the Scriptures by the Spirit's teaching"?

Sorry, but I'm a Grammatico-Historico hermeneutic type guy.

Now, as to this statement I quoted above, which is from your reply, the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil didn't cause death, sir! The Spirit enlightened me by revealing to me:

Genesis 2:16-17 (ASV) "And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Adam and Eve's eating of the fruit of that tree was not the cause of their subsequent death. But it was the consequence of their disobedience; the transgression of a very specific command of God which forbid them to eat that fruit. There is no need to spiritualize or allegorize the text. The meaning is clear enough, at least for this old guy!

In His Grace,

Mr Potts,

I think you are reaching just a little too far in your "connections" and what the "spirit" is revealing to you!
You said:"You see there is nothing wrong with the law, it is what the law produces in man that is the trouble - the fruit of it is death."

The law does not "produce" the evil in man, it is there in our nature's! If it is not pointed out to us by the law, we wouldn't even notice it. This is why we need the law, it is the rule of life for those who want to imitate Jesus.
Again, "He who loves ms, will follow My commandments." I think this statement is pretty clear on it's own.

In His Hands,

Ruth

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Pilgrim said:
<blockquote>Genesis 2:16-17 (ASV) "And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."</blockquote>

Adam and Eve's eating of the fruit of that tree was not the cause of their subsequent death. But it was the consequence of their disobedience; the transgression of a very specific command of God which forbid them to eat that fruit. There is no need to spiritualize or allegorize the text. The meaning is clear enough, at least for this old guy! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

Yes, I realise that Pilgrim, and I actually said "the eating of the fruit" brought death, the act of disobedience. Adam was commanded not to eat of the tree, but he disobeyed and died. But God's command wasn't simply some 'abirtrary' command. It wasn't simply the fact that Adam disobeyed God, as though if God had told him not to touch his toes and he did that he would also have died. There was significance in the thing which God commanded him not to do. God knew that the 'fruit' of that tree was bad for Adam (and I don't mean literal fruit but the spiritual reality of it).

This is just the same as with law. God gave the law to us to prove our sin, to condemn us, kill all confidence in the flesh and our own works and shut us up to Christ alone for salvation. That's the law's main purpose.

Once the law has had that effect on us, and we cry out to God for mercy, and He hears our cries and quickens us to life by the Spirit, having fled to Christ to be washed in His blood, then our flesh has been cruficed with Christ at the cross. We are risen with Christ and are delivered from the law.

Now God gives us a commandment, and we, like Adam would do well to hear it, because if we disobey then we just bring upon ourself condemnation and death again. The commandment is here:-

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."
Galatians 5:1

Why is that? Because we are married to Christ, and should not commit adultery by returning to our old husband. See Romans 7:4:

"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."

How do you understand those verses Pilgrim?

BTW Just because I say we are under grace, not law, does not mean in any way that I hate the law. In fact for some time I have had the following article on my website, saying just that. Perhaps you'd like to read it:-

http://www.ipotts.freeserve.co.uk/article12.html

In Grace,
Ian

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Ruth said:
Mr Potts,

I think you are reaching just a little too far in your "connections" and what the "spirit" is revealing to you!
You said:"You see there is nothing wrong with the law, it is what the law produces in man that is the trouble - the fruit of it is death."

The law does not "produce" the evil in man, it is there in our nature's! If it is not pointed out to us by the law, we wouldn't even notice it. This is why we need the law, it is the rule of life for those who want to imitate Jesus.
Again, "He who loves ms, will follow My commandments." I think this statement is pretty clear on it's own.

In His Hands,

Ruth

Ruth,

What I mean by 'produces' in man, is that when the law addresses man it flares up the sin in man. That isn't the law's fault it is man's fault because sin dwells in his flesh. See Romans 7:9-12.

That is the same for believers Ruth. We still have the flesh, and the effect of law upon us is just the same. Sin is flared up and we can't do that which we wish to do (what the law says!). By faith in Christ, delivered from the law, we DO FULFIL the law. That's the point!

Allow me to explain this a bit. We are sinners Ruth. Sin is in our flesh. But it can lie dormant at times. The law functions by showing us our sin by actually exposing it, by 'provoking' it as it were, by bringing what is hidden in our hearts to the surface so that we can't fool ourselves that it isn't there - it becomes very plain that it is.

Think of a child. If I have a pot of cookies in the house and say nothing about it, the child may or may not find them and may or may not eat them. But if I tell that child where the cookies are and NOT to eat them or else, then what happens? Well we all know, that more often or not the child will start thinking about the cookies, and although he knows it is wrong he will go against the command, overcome by the temptation and eat some. So the command not to, tends to provoke the sin. The child knows it is wrong, but sin flares up.

That is exactly the same with us spiritually and is the experience which Paul describes in Romans 7. He is a sinner, but the law exposes it, flares it up, and in so doing kills him. He wants to obey the law but find the sin in his flesh makes him do the opposite!

But when freed from it by Christ's death for Him, by being risen in Christ, by walking in the Spirit (see Romans 8), he then fulfils the law, the only way it can be done. By walking in the Spirit, by faith, looking unto Jesus.

This experience of Paul's in Romans 7 though Ruth is just that - experience. Not everyone knows it. Most unbelievers have no regard for the law and never attempt to keep it. But those whom God is saving He brings under the law, and by the law teaches them that they are sinners. They strive to keep it, they want to keep it, but it slays them because of their sin. That is their experience. They love the law, it is good, but they cannot keep it. They then find wonderful deliverance in the Saviour whom they find to be all their righteousness. It is when they have been brought completely to an end of themselves and their own abilities that they then find peace, pardon, deliverance through the cross of Christ and His shed blood. They then know what it is to walk in the Spirit by faith.

But I can't teach you that, or anyone else. It is an experience that God brings one through. But it is wonderful that God does work in us and bring us through these experiences to make us perfect in Christ Jesus.

Again, you seem to be ignoring what others are saying to you. You repeated back to me exactly what I said to you, only in a longer, more wordy way! Could you just answer 2 questions please:
1. What commandments Jesus says we are to obey, if we love Him?
2. What EXACTLY do you mean when you say we "walk in the Spirit"? Give precise examples of what we are and are not to do, please.

In His Hands,

Ruth

I'll have a go Ruth, if I may <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

1.Love your neighbour.

2.We walk in Faith .This is Christian Law (Romans 3:27)Are we not led by The Holy Spirit ? Through Faith ?

Any help <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />?

Hi Ruth, [i]Again, you seem to be ignoring what others are saying to you. You repeated back to me exactly what I said to you, only in a longer, more wordy way![/i] I have been following along in this discussion and it makes me wonder if we are reading the same posts by Ian. I see clearly where he is trying to answer you guys, but it seems no matter what he says, you say he's not answering. Here are just a few times Ian has answered your questions Ruth. Thses are quotes from several of Ian's posts: [b]I have said that Christ's commandments are to believe in Him and to love Him and one another. The end of all these commandments, these words, is that we love God. We love Christ. We dwell in Him. We have eternal life because Christ IS our life. The union of Father, Son and Holy Ghost is set forth in John 14, and our union with God, as those who ‘keep’ (believe, remember, treasure up) Christ’s commandments, words, sayings, is shown forth in the love we have for God and our brethren. What commandments are these? Well they are mentioned throughout 1 John, but chapter 3:23-24 summarises them: “And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us”. 1 John 3:23-24 The commandments are summarised as to believe on the name of God’s son Jesus Christ, and love one another. How can we do that? Only by the work of the Spirit.[/b] Carol

Wow ! Hello Carol <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />Welcome to the Highway.

Perhaps you should arrive here a little more gracefully <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Ponder.gif" alt="" /> ?

Btw,I like blue but not here <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/puke.gif" alt="" />

Oops! Sorry. I didn't mean to be rude. If I came across that way, please forgive me. And thanks for the welcome, Mark! Carol

You remind me of me when I first discovered cyberworld <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/dizzy.gif" alt="" />.

No offence taken btw <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Ian said:
This experience of Paul's in Romans 7 though Ruth is just that - experience. Not everyone knows it. Most unbelievers have no regard for the law and never attempt to keep it. But those whom God is saving He brings under the law, and by the law teaches them that they are sinners. They strive to keep it, they want to keep it, but it slays them because of their sin. That is their experience. They love the law, it is good, but they cannot keep it. They then find wonderful deliverance in the Saviour whom they find to be all their righteousness. It is when they have been brought completely to an end of themselves and their own abilities that they then find peace, pardon, deliverance through the cross of Christ and His shed blood. They then know what it is to walk in the Spirit by faith.

But again, you are setting the 3 persons of the Trinity against each other.

God gave mankind a set of commandments, either written on the heart (pre-Moses) or on tablets of stone, which set forth what holiness is, which all men are to conform themselves and by which they shall be judged for not keeping perfectly. The Son in Christ Jesus came to establish these commandments and He followed these same moral laws His entire life and even paid the penalty for their transgression in behalf of those whom the Father gave Him. The Lord Christ sent the Holy Spirit in His place to dwell in believers to guide them into the truth and to aid them in their conformation to these same commandments as they are made holy.

There is no "second righteousness or holiness" apart from nor superior to the revealed and inspired revelation of God which we have in the Bible. I would point out to you these words of the Lord Christ which bear heavily on this subject:

Matthew 5:18, 19 (KJV) "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

James 2:10-11 (ASV) "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one [point], he is become guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou dost not commit adultery, but killest, thou art become a transgressor of the law." . . . 14 "What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?"

So once again, we see the Scripture affirming the perspicuity of the moral law of God and applied to believers, not as a means of justification, but binding upon them as a rule of life. "Experience" is not our tutor. And He Who is our tutor, the Holy Spirit, brings us to the WORD, wherein is written the way of life in Christ Jesus.

Greg Welty has written a critique and total rebuttal of your Antinomian view and upholds the historic Reformed/Calvinistic doctrine concerning the perpetuity and binding character of God's holy moral law for believers.

You can find it here: Eschatological Fulfilment and the Confirmation of Mosaic Law.

In His Grace,

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1.Love your neighbour.

2.We walk in Faith .This is Christian Law (Romans 3:27)Are we not led by The Holy Spirit ? Through Faith ?

Any help <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

Summing up the commandments as loving God and man in no way lessens the demands of the law. Ian is replacing the moral law with what he perceives to be a lesser law, but Jesus clearly showed that keeping the commandments goes deeper that anyone thought and penetrates to the motives of the heart. The law is what the Spirit uses to convict you when you harbor angry or lustful thoughts. The law makes you aware that you have sinned and the Spirit convicts you of your sin. Your love for God will make you hate that which God hates and to say, "How then can I do this great wickedness and sin against God? The Holy Spirit and the Word work together not apart from one another.

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2 Timothy 3 :16 All Scripture [including the moral law] is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

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We are not simply informed inwardly by the Spirit; rather, we are informed explicitly by the law. therefore, to set our minds on the things of the Spirit means to make God's law the absorbing object of our thoughts. We do not have to wait for the Spirit to tell us what to do, for He has already told us in His law, in the word which is the Spirit's sword.
Being Human by Ranald Macaulay and Jerram Barrs

We cannot ignore the moral law. All Scripture is valuable for us. Some parts of the law have been fulfilled and are no longer binding on a Christian. The ceremonial law was fulfilled by the ultimate sacrifice of Christ. The entire law as given to the children of Israel, consisted of three parts, the moral, the judicial and the ceremonial.

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What then is the position with regard to the law and the prophets? I have already tried to show ou how the prophets have been fulfilled in and through our Lord Jesus Christ; and yet there still remains something to be fulfilled. What about the law? We can say with regard to the ceremonial law, as I have shown , that it has been already completely fulfilled. Our Lord observed it in His life while here on earth, and He exhorted the disciples to do the same. In His death, resurrection and ascension the whole of the ceremonial law has been entirely fulfilled. In confirmation of that, as it were, the temple was later destroyed. The veil of the temple had already been rent in twain at His death and finally all that belonged to it were destroyed...

What of the judicial law? This was primarily and especially for the nation of Israel, as God's theocracy, in its then special circumstances. But Israel is no longer the theocratic nation. You remember that at the end of His ministry our Lord turned to the Jews and said, 'Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you , and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.'...And the apostle Peter, in 1 Peter 2: 9,10, makes it abundantly clear that the new nation is the Church...
That leaves us with the moral law. The position with regard to this is different, because here God is laying down something which is permanent and perpetual, the relationship which must always subsist between Himself and man. It is all to be found, of course, in what our Lord calls the first and greatest commandment. 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind.' That is permanent. That is not for the Theocratic nation only; it is for the whole of mankind. The second commandment , He says, 'is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.' That again was not only for the theocratic nation of Israel; that was not merely the old ceremonial law. It is a permanent condition and part of our perpetual relationship to God. Thus the moral law, as interpreted by the New Testament, stands now as much as it has ever done, and will do so until the end of time and until we are perfected. In 1 John 3, the apostle is very careful to remind his readers that sin in Christian people is still 'a transgression of the law.' ...The law is still there, and when I sin I am breaking that law, though I am a Christian and though I have never been a Jew, and am a Gentile. So the moral law still applies to us. pp. 194, 195
Martyn Lloyd-Jones Studies in The Sermon on the Mount

Hi Mark,

Well, I'm afraid that I still don't find how to live my life by your answer. I do love the Lord and try to imitate His life, which he lived by following the law! I know what I am to do and what I am not to do by the law. "Walking in the Spirit" sure sounds good, but WHAT does it mean? Is that like "what would Jesus do"? Jesus fulfilled the law for me, does that mean that I don't have to do what He did? I can just "love" my neighbour, and what is meant by that, exactly?

Try and give me some explicit examples please Mark.

In His Hands,

Ruth

Well Carol,

Just slam right in here and say your piece by all means! If you can find some good examples of Scripture erasing the moral law, I sure would like to see them please! And if you would care to, give me some ideas of how to live by "walking in the Spirit". I mean some specific ways to "love your neighbor" without using any reference to the law, which was given by God to mankind as a rule of life. When did "keep my commandments" become "remember, treasure up, my commandments"? Is not Jesus part of the Trinity? How can His commandments be different than God's?
It is easy for you and Ian to say that you live in the Spirit and the law is dead, but I want to know who changed God's prescription for the way to live? Did God change? The law expresses His nature, His direction for human behavior. Did Jesus' fulfilling it, change anything in it? Is it not still what God demands of His children, even though we cannot fulfill it perfectly? Are we not to imitate Jesus? These questions Ian has not answered, nor have you.

In His Hands,

Ruth

Hi Ruth,

I believe if we strive to keep our eyes on Christ, we will begin to change. We will begin to love our neighbors and will know what things we need to do to show that love, and of course we will want to and begin to keep the commands in the bible, but keeping the commands will not be our main focus. Our main focus is Christ. Whenever we feel insufficient or sinful, we should take our eyes off ourselves and look to Christ, not work harder to keep the rule. Remind ourselves he is sufficient and just rest in him. Now as we do this, our love for him will grow and we will begin to do good works, (works of the law), but not out of duty, --out of love for him. And not because we are striving to do it, just because it’s what we want to do.

Read the word because Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. As we do this, we will begin to keep the law more and more (never perfectly), because he will give us faith, but I don’t believe we should make the law some rule we have to follow. To me, that takes our eyes off of Christ and puts them on the rule. And before we know it we are glorying in our keeping of the law or worried because we don’t.

I believe our focus should not be to try to follow the law or even to stop sinning, our focus should be to keep our eyes on Christ and the other two things will begin to happen because it is the Holy Spirit working in us. Now that to me is rest.

Carol

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I believe our focus should not be to try to follow the law or even to stop sinning, our focus should be to keep our eyes on Christ and the other two things will begin to happen because it is the Holy Spirit working in us. Now that to me is rest!

I must ask you, "Why are you bifurcating a love for Christ, focusing upon Christ from that which Christ Himself tells us should be that which we do as an expression of our love for Him; i.e., 'If you love me, keep my commandments.'?" Why is "duty" such a disdainful word to you? Are not all whom God has saved from destruction and reconciled to Himself in Christ Jesus obligated to offer thanksgiving, worship, adoration and obedience to Him? Regeneration is that which creates a spiritual predispostion, a natural affection to do that which God requires; i.e., to be holy. Before regeneration, we are predisposed to do that which we also loved, i.e., transgress the law of God; aka: sin. Repentance is truly a turning from sin (transgressing the law) to doing righteousness (conforming to the law).

In all the Reformed Confessions, see for example, the Heidelberg Catechism,

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[color:"blue"]Heidelberg Catechism - Lord's Day 32[/color]

Q86: Since, then, we are redeemed from our misery by grace through Christ, without any merit of ours, why must we do good works?
A86: Because Christ, having redeemed us by His blood, also renews us by His Holy Spirit after His own image, that with our whole life we show ourselves thankful to God for His blessing,[1] and that He be glorified through us;[2] then also, that we ourselves may be assured of our faith by the fruits thereof;[3] and by our godly walk may win others also to Christ.[4]

1. Rom. 6:13; 12:1-2; I Peter 2:5, 9-10, 12; I Cor. 6:20;
2. Matt. 5:16; I Peter 2:12
3. Matt. 7:17-18; Gal. 5:6, 22-23
4. Rom. 14:19; I Peter 3:1-2; II Peter 1:10

Q87: Can they, then, be saved who do not turn to God from their unthankful, impenitent life?

A87: By no means, for, as Scripture says, no unchaste person, idolater, adulterer, thief, covetous man, drunkard, slanderer, robber, or the like shall inherit the kingdom of God.[1]

1. I Cor. 6:9-10; Eph. 5:5-6; I John 3:14-15

our "duty" is always described as doing what God requires of us out of gratitude. Loving God is keeping His commandments, for we are to be perfect and holy as HE is perfect and holy. This is nothing new as it was taught in both the O.T. and the N.T. (cf. Lev. 20:7; 1Pet 1:15, 16). In fact, the apostle Paul describes believers as "bondservants to Christ":

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Romans 6:15-18 (ASV) "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves [as] servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered; and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness."

The Spirit of God always works in conjuction with the written Word, of which He was the author. Being "led by the Spirit" is not some ethereal, mystical, secret and alien guiding that is divorced from the revealed will of God; the Scriptures. When a believer is faced with the circumstances of daily life, and asked, "Lord, what wouldst thou have me to do in this place?", one should not expect to suddenly find himself speaking words he is totally unfamiliar with and which he himself didn't desire to speak. Nor should one expect to find his body doing something beyond his own control. The Spirit simply doesn't work in that manner. Yes, the Spirit works IN us to do that which is most pleasing to God according to His Word. Although the Bible should never be thought of as an encyclopedia of the Christian Faith, it does contain both specific commandments and principles which are sufficient to answer any and all situations. (2Tim 3:16, 17) What is our responsibility is to study the Word and know it completely and then to put it into practice (Col 1:9, 10). We should not expect the Spirit to work some "magic" in our lives as we "focus on Jesus". As Paul admonishes his readers, 2 Thess 3:10 (KJV) "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." Negligence in seeking knowledge from the Scriptures and calling upon God in prayer to give us an understanding of how to apply that knowledge, aka: wisdom is not only unacceptable, it simply isn't taught in the Scriptures themselves.

Philippians 2:12-13 (ASV) "So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure."

In His Grace,

Hi Carol,

Pilgrim has answered you very well if you will read his response. I disagree that we can stop trying to correct our sin, and just "look to Jesus" to perform good works. We are told to "strive to enter by the narrow gate", and "make your calling and election sure", doesn't sound like "rest" to me. Yes, we must constantly continue in the Word, that is where we learn, and that is where we find how to live by faith. It doesn't "just happen" as we "look to Jesus", as if by magic as Pilgrim says. Perhaps you are trying to avoid legalism by eliminating the law, but you are going too far and fooling yourself that you can let Jesus do everything for you with no effort on your part to conform yourself for the kingdom.

In His Hands,

Ruth

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I disagree that we can stop trying to correct our sin, and just "look to Jesus" to perform good works. We are told to "strive to enter by the narrow gate", and "make your calling and election sure", doesn't sound like "rest" to me.

Amen! You preach it sister, I stutter!

Some of the many salient passages which uphold this truth; that we are to "strive" after holiness, put off sin, etc., can be seen here:

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1 Corinthians 10:14 (ASV) "Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry."

1 Timothy 6:11-14 (ASV) "But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of the faith, lay hold on the life eternal, whereunto thou wast called, and didst confess the good confession in the sight of many witnesses. I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:" (note that "keep" is not to remember, but to do something.)

2 Timothy 2:19-21 (ASV) "Howbeit the firm foundation of God standeth, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his: and, Let every one that nameth the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness. Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some unto honor, and some unto dishonor. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, meet for the master's use, prepared unto every good work."

2 Corinthians 7:9-10 (ASV) "I now rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye were made sorry unto repentance; for ye were made sorry after a godly sort, that ye might suffer loss by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation, [a repentance] which bringeth no regret: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (Paul is speaking to the Corinthians who professed faith in Christ.)

Ephesians 4:17-23 (ASV) "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart; who being past feeling gave themselves up to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye did not so learn Christ; if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt after the lusts of deceit; and that ye be renewed in the spirit of your mind,"

Colossians 3:5-10 (ASV) "Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry; for which things' sake cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience: wherein ye also once walked, when ye lived in these things; but now do ye also put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, railing, shameful speaking out of your mouth: lie not one to another; seeing that ye have put off the old man with his doings, and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:" (notice how Paul, in this admonition iterates many of the Ten Commandments!)

James 4:7-8 (ASV) "Be subject therefore unto God; but resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye doubleminded."

It seems undeniably clear from the presence of so many active verbs which demand action on the part of the believer, that one is clearly responsible to do righteousness, which is forever preserved in the commandments of God and of which the Epistles are their commentary.

In His Grace,

Well, I have tried doing it the way you speak of Ruth and it just doesnt work for me. Yes, I can sometimes perform the 'good works' or follow the law, but I find that when I do, I glory in it somewhat or I lament when I don't perform it well or at all. It is only when I look to Christ and rest in him that I feel relief. And it's funny, but that's when I find myself loving Christ more and wanting to read the word more and do what it says more without really even thinking about it. And it's like a huge burden has been lifted of my shoulders, not to have to worry about it all the time. But believe me, I do want to follow the commands of the bible because I love the Lord and want to do what he says. But I believe I only love him because he put that love there.

I can only go by my own experience. Maybe it doesnt work that way for you. I don't know.

Carol

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Ruth said:
Again, you seem to be ignoring what others are saying to you. You repeated back to me exactly what I said to you, only in a longer, more wordy way! Could you just answer 2 questions please:
1. What commandments Jesus says we are to obey, if we love Him?
2. What EXACTLY do you mean when you say we "walk in the Spirit"? Give precise examples of what we are and are not to do, please.

In His Hands,

Ruth

Ruth,

If you re-read my reply you will find that it isn’t exactly what you said to me, for I contend that the result of the experience described in Romans 7 of the law showing us our sin, and by it slaying us, is that we are then shut up to faith in Christ. Once we believe on Christ we see that our flesh was crucified with Him at the cross and that we are now dead to the law, delivered from it, risen again in Christ, married to Him to walk in newness of the Spirit, and NOT in the oldness of the letter (law) as it is written:-

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“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
Romans 7:6

In answer to your questions:-

1. I have answered this in the ‘Antinomian’ thread. See this post: #34691 on page 8.

Briefly as Carol has quoted:-

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“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us”.
1 John 3:23-24

2. Come with me to the scriptures Ruth. Read the following in Galatians 5:-

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“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”
Galatians 5:16-25

This passage makes it clear that if we walk in the Spirit we are not under the law. This is also demonstrated in Romans 6, 7 and 8. Romans 6:14 tells us “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”. This is picked up in Chapter 7, “But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter”. And Chapter 8 goes on to discuss the difference between walking in the flesh (under law) and in the Spirit (under grace):

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“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”

May the Spirit lead you into all the truth of the Gospel of Christ Ruth.

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Carol said:
Hi Ruth,

I believe if we strive to keep our eyes on Christ, we will begin to change. We will begin to love our neighbors and will know what things we need to do to show that love, and of course we will want to and begin to keep the commands in the bible, but keeping the commands will not be our main focus. Our main focus is Christ. Whenever we feel insufficient or sinful, we should take our eyes off ourselves and look to Christ, not work harder to keep the rule. Remind ourselves he is sufficient and just rest in him. Now as we do this, our love for him will grow and we will begin to do good works, (works of the law), but not out of duty, --out of love for him. And not because we are striving to do it, just because it’s what we want to do.

Read the word because Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. As we do this, we will begin to keep the law more and more (never perfectly), because he will give us faith, but I don’t believe we should make the law some rule we have to follow. To me, that takes our eyes off of Christ and puts them on the rule. And before we know it we are glorying in our keeping of the law or worried because we don’t.

I believe our focus should not be to try to follow the law or even to stop sinning, our focus should be to keep our eyes on Christ and the other two things will begin to happen because it is the Holy Spirit working in us. Now that to me is rest.

Carol

God bless you Carol, you are walking in the pathway of faith. "Stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." Gal 5:1, For "If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law".

Truly I believe that it can be said of you, as Christ said unto Peter "Blessed art thou ...: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

In Grace,
Ian

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"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."
Hebrews 4

Hi Steve. I believe you are a friend of Ian Potts and I would be interested in your views on this subject . Are they the same as Ians ?

I have read many of your posts on the PB and Baptists Discussing Reformation forums .

Hello Mark,
I am indeed a friend of Ian Potts, though as to whether he thinks the same of me, I am uncertain. You are, I think, aka Ergatees on the reformedreader forum. Your views seem to have strayed somewhat from the stalwart Presbyterian stance you took there.
I have just posted on this topic on another thread. It might have been better to post it here. If Pilgrim sees fit to move it, that will be fine by me.

Every blessing,
Steve

I was indeed Ergatees looking into presbyterianism . I still am looking into it but not on that board-I've not posted there for months ,and I dont intend to go back there either- too many bickering baptists for my liking <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Steve as a leader of a Baptist church , does the Baptist confession read like WCF19 :1-2 in light of Deuteronomy 5:3? Is it as confusing to you as WCF 19:1-2 is to me ? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/dizzy.gif" alt="" />

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BookMark said:
Steve as a leader of a Baptist church , does the Baptist confession read like WCF19 :1-2 in light of Deuteronomy 5:3? Is it as confusing to you as WCF 19:1-2 is to me ? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/dizzy.gif" alt="" />

Mark here is what chapter 19 of the LBC of 1689 says:

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London Confession of the Baptist Faith Chapter 19

Of the Law

I. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart, and a particular precept of not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil;[1] by which He bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience;[2] promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[3]

1. Gen. 1:27; Eccl. 7:29
2. Rom. 10:5
3. Gal. 3:10, 12

II. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall,[4] and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables, the four first containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.[5]

4. Rom. 2:14-15
5. Deut. 10:4

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[6] and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties,[7] all which ceremonial laws being appointed only to the time of reformation, are, by Jesus Christ the true Messiah and only law-giver, who was furnished with power from the Father for that end abrogated and taken away.[8]

6. Heb. 10:1; Col. 2:17
7. I Cor. 5:7
8. Col. 2:14, 16-17; Eph. 2:14, 16

IV. To them also He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any now by virtue of that institution; their general equity only being for modern use.[9]

9. I Cor. 9:8-10

V. The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof,[10] and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it;[11] neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[12]

10. Rom. 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12
11. James 2:10-11
12. Matt. 5:17-19; Rom. 3:31

VI. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned,[13] yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin;[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of His obedience: it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatening of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. These promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.[15]

13. Rom. 6:14; Gal. 2:16; Rom. 8:1; 10:4
14. Rom. 3:20; 7:7-25
15. Rom. 6:12-14; I Peter 3:8-13

VII. Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it,[16] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done.[17]

16. Gal. 3:21
17. Ezek.36:27

Examine it for yourself.

Pete

Thanks Pete-it sounds as confusing as the WCF (to me)

I was hoping that Steve ,as a Baptist pastor could shed some light on it for me as no Presbyterian pastor has responded to my query as yet.

Thanks <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Mark,
Clearly, the Ten Commandments as written down in Exodus 20 are not addressed to Adam. They begin, 'I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt.' That obviously was not written to Adam. But to say that Adam did not have the law written on his heart is ridiculous. Suppose Adam had murdered Eve; would God have said, "That's OK, Adam! At least you didn't eat the apple."? Also, if the was no moral law before Moses, God owes the people of Sodom a big apology.

God placed His laws in the hearts of men from the beginning, which is why,

'The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness; because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them' (Rom 1:18-19).

Baptists tend to sit rather more loosely to their confessions than Presbyterians. I am actually quite a fan of the 1646 Baptist Confession, which says:-

ART XXIX: 'All believers are a holy and sanctified people, and that sanctification is a spiritual grace of the new covenant, and an effect of the love of God manifested in the soul, whereby the believer presseth after a heavenly and evangelical obedience to all the commands, which Christ, as Head and King in His new covenant hath prescribed to them,'

I think that's rather good.
And in the Appendix is added:-

APP X: 'Though we be not now sent to the law as it was in the hand of Moses, to be commanded thereby, yet Christ in His gospel teacheth and commandeth us to walk in the same way of righteousness and holiness that God by Moses did command the Israelites to walk in; all the commandments of the Second Table being still delivered to us by Christ, and all the .....First Table also (as touching the life and spirit of them) in this epitome or brief sum, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, etc.'

I have to go out now. I'll try to expand a little more later.

Every blessing,
Steve

Mark,
Could you be more specific about your objections? Could you quote the specific parts of the WCF or Baptist Confession so we will know what you mean.

Susan WCF 19: 1-2 reads :

God gave Adam a law, as a covenant of works,by which He bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire,exact,and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it: and endued him with power and ability to keep it. (Gen 1:26,2:17, Rom 2:14,10:5,5:12,Ecc 7:29,Job 28:28)

This law,after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness, and , as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai,in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the four first commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man. (James 1:25,2:8, Rom13:8, Deut5:32,10:4, Exod34:1, Matt 22:37 )

Deuteronomy 5:3 reads : "The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers,but with us,even us,who are all of us here alive this day"

Which is correct The Bible or the WCF ? There is no "middle" ground here IMHO.

Mark,
In my post of Wed 25 Feb, 11-15am I did answer this question. Perhaps you don't like, agree with or understand my answer but please do not continue to say you haven't had one.

The Mosaic law came through Moses qed, but Adam had God's law written on his heart from Day 1. So everybody's right; isn't that great? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bravo.gif" alt="" />

Blessings,
Steve

"...but Adam had Gods'law written on his heart from Day 1.So everybody's right.."

I thought you said you were a pastor Steve ?

Please read Deuteronomy 5:3 which TOTALLY disagrees with you <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Not at all, Mark.
The Mosaic Covenant, about which Moses is talking, was obviously made with Moses. God did not give the dietry laws or circumcision to Adam. But God's moral standards did not change just because He made a covenant with Moses. God has always been holy, pure and righteous- or do you disagree? Don't try to make the text say more than it does.

BTW, I have never stated that I am a Pastor, for the very good reason that I'm not one. I am one of four leaders who look after a tiny Baptist Church.

Blessings,
Steve

Sorry I thought you were a pastor Steve <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/stupidme.gif" alt="" />

Of course God is Holy, pure, and righteous.

As for the rest of your post.....<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

OK Mark,
Let's take it very slowly.....
You agree that God is holy, pure and righteous. Excellent!
Now tell me; Did He only get like that when He gave the law to Moses or has He always been that way?

Steve

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Mark said:In Deuteronomy 5 :3 it says : "The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers,but with us,even us,who are all of us here alive this day"

Mark, read the context of Deut 5:3. You are interpreting it to mean that before this there were no laws. We know that Abel's blood cried out for vengence against his murderous brother. We know the wickedness on earth increased greatly by the time of the flood when God destroyed all but eight people on the earth.
It is plain to me that what is being stressed in Deuteronomy 5:3 is that the children of Israel are in the position of being a very privileged people seeing all this first hand and receiving the commandments writtten on stone, a privilege that their fathers didn't share. God does not change, so his standards cannot change either and men are without excuse for breaking God's law.

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Romans1 v.18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Backing up to Chapter Deuteronomy 4,

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Deuteronomy 4 v.32 For ask now of the days that are past, which were before you, since the day that God created man on the earth, and ask from one end of heaven to the other, whether such a great thing as this has ever happened or was ever heard of. 33 Did any people ever hear the voice of a god speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and still live? 34 Or has any god ever attempted to go and take a nation for himself from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs, by wonders, and by war, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and by great deeds of terror, all of which the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes? 35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him. 36 Out of heaven he let you hear his voice, that he might discipline you. And on earth he let you see his great fire, and you heard his words out of the midst of the fire. 37 And because he loved your fathers and chose their offspring after them [2] and brought you out of Egypt with his own presence, by his great power, 38 driving out before you nations greater and mightier than yourselves, to bring you in, to give you their land for an inheritance, as it is this day, 39 know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. 40 Therefore you shall keep his statutes and his commandments, which I command you today, that it may go well with you and with your children after you, and that you may prolong your days in the land that the Lord your God is giving you for all time.

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Deuteronomy 5:3 reads : "The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers,but with us,even us,who are all of us here alive this day"

Which is correct The Bible or the WCF ? There is no "middle" ground here IMHO.

It depends on which Covenant that is being spoken of I don't believe that Deut. 5:3 is speaking of the Covenant of Works but rather the particular manifestation of the Covenant of Grace being presented to the Jews.

This I think is your major issue you can not discern what covenant is being spoken of in Deut. 5:3 your assumption is that it's speaking of the Covenant of Works. But why would God be assigning the Covenant of Works to the people as a method of Salvation since He had already initiated the Covenant of Grace.

Pete

Here's what Matthew Henry said:
3. He refers them to the covenant made with them in Horeb, as that which they must govern themselves by. See the wonderful condescension of divine grace in turning the command into a covenant, that we might be the more strongly bound to obedience by our own consent and the more encouraged in it by the divine promise, both which are supposed in the covenant. The promises and threatenings annexed to some of the precepts, as to the second, third, and fifth, make them amount to a covenant. Observe, (1.) The parties to this covenant. God made it, not with our fathers, not with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; to them God gave the covenant of circumcision (Acts 7:8), but not that of the ten commandments. The light of divine revelation shone gradually, and the children were made to know more of God's mind than their fathers had done. "The covenant was made with us, or our immediate parents that represented us, before Mount Sinai, and transacted for us. (2.) The publication of this covenant. God himself did, as it were, read the articles to them (v. 4): He talked with you face to face; word to word, so the Chaldee. Not in dark visions, as of old he spoke to the fathers (Job 4:12, 13), but openly and clearly, and so that all the thousands of Israel might hear and understand. He spoke to them, and then received the answer they returned to him: thus was it transacted face to face.

No Susan,I am saying that the Ten Commandments were given at Horeb-not before.

Isaac,Enoch,Abel,Noah,Jacob,Abraham etc,had not this law as Deut 5:3 clearly says.These men lived by faith .

I live by faith too - tis Gods gift to His people.

Mark said:

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I live by faith too - tis Gods gift to His people.

Sounds very pious, but I wonder:

Faith in what? God's gift to His people is a love of the Word of God, "the Logos", ALL of it/Him, as a revelation of Himself.

"In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

In Him,

Gerry

Mark,
Please define what you mean by 'living by faith'.
Steve

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Mark, no one is saying that God gave the 10 commandments the way he did at Sinai previously, yet it is obvious that since these laws are part of who God is, he has revealed his law to people before this time so that men are without excuse when they disregard God's laws and sin.

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Genesis 4:And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, 5 but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell. 6 The Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.

That sounds like God expects men to know what 'doing well' and 'not doing well' involves. Clearly God was telling Cain not to act on his angry and hateful thoughts toward his brother and not to kill him.

Also notice a commandment is given here by God to Noah after the flood stating the penalties for murder. It is not hard to see that the commandment not to murder is understood here too.

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Genesis 9:. 5 And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.
6 Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.

Absolutely right, Susan! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ClapHands.gif" alt="" />
Also consider Gen 6:12 (Gen 18:20 is similar): 'So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.' By what standard had they corrupted their way upon the earth, if there was no law? And how were they culpable if they had no knowledge of that law?

The answer is found, as has been said, in Rom 1:18-21. Knowledge of God and of His righteous standards are in the hearts of all men, but they 'suppress the truth in unrighteousness.'

Steve

The classic text which refutes all that Mark has been advocating; that there was no Moral Law, i.e., the essence of the Ten Commandments before they were delivered to Moses is found here:

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Romans 5:12-14 (ASV) "Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:-- for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.

How much clearer should the Holy Spirit have to make things for even the dullest of minds than this? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" />

Sin is: "the transgression of the law".
Death is the result of transgressing the law.
Death is experienced by all men.
If there was no law, there would be no sin and therefore no man would experience death.
But all men died from Adam until Moses.
Therefore, all men are guilty of transgressing the law before the Ten Commandments were given.

Game.... Point.... MATCH! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

Living in faith Steve is oppossed to living in law .This is a gift to His people.Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit Steve. Your striving to keep the law is dead works. You really should read Romans,Galatians James and Hebrews Steve.

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Steve asked you,
Mark,
Please define what you mean by 'living by faith'.

And you responded with THIS??

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BookMark replied:
Living in faith Steve is oppossed to living in law .This is a gift to His people.Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit Steve. Your striving to keep the law is dead works. You really should read Romans,Galatians James and Hebrews Steve.

It would appear that you are unable or unwilling to participate in any meaningful dialogue. Is this because you lack the ability to define even one aspect of one of the most fundamental elements of the Christian religion, i.e., Faith as it is expressed in the life of a justified sinner?

Instead of replying to someone who has asked you a sincere question with: You really should read Romans,Galatians James and Hebrews, which is really [Linked Image]

, why don't you answer the question with what Romans, Galatians, James and Hebrews teaches about "living/walking by faith"? You have been given countless opportunities to defend your Antinomianism, but you have avoided and/or refused to do so at every turn. All you seem to be able or willing to do is to make some disparaging, insulting, or totally irrelevant remarks. See but one example here: Another vitriolic Non-answer. Why is that? Admittedly, it must be an unbearable weight <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/heavy.gif" alt="" /> to bear, knowing that you oppose the doctrines of justification and sanctification as held by the entire Protestant Church. The onus is NOT upon those of us who adhere to these historic doctrines, but upon you who opposes them. It is your task to disprove what has been proven by sound exegesis of Scripture, not by telling someone to go read four books of the Bible; especially one who is obviously far more biblically literate than yourself. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

Methinks you have leaped into a very deep pit before you looked. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

Pilgrim ,had I posted the question Steve asked you might have responded with an "off-topic" .

I asked a question at the top of this thread which remains unanswered btw.

Every Christian should know that we walk by faith (1 Cor5:7)
and that we live by faith(Romans1:17,Gal3:11,Heb10:38). If you dont know what it means Steve.........

I have learnt all I need to know about WCF19 . Thanks to those brave enough to try and address it <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mark,
I know what I mean by 'living by faith.' I am interested to know what YOU mean by it.

I did address your original question in the first part of my post of 25 Feb, 11-15am. You are certainly entitled not to agree with my answer, but it is not true to say that you have not been answered.

Every blessing,
Steve

Fair enough Steve . How can you live by faith and introduce the works of the Law at the same time ?

Game point and match Pilgrim ?

O k ,if you say so. I shall leave WCF19 now.

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Steve asked again:
Mark,
I know what I mean by 'living by faith.' I am interested to know what YOU mean by it.

And you replied, (notice I did not say answer, for you did not):

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Fair enough Steve . How can you live by faith and introduce the works of the Law at the same time ?

That's the strangest and most illogical alleged answer to the question Mark asked you that I have ever read. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Why don't you just admit it Mark, you really don't have a clue what it means to "walk by faith"? Evidently, you can't even define "faith", since this was also asked of you and an answer never was given either. How can you possibly hope to argue about something you know absolutely nothing about? [Linked Image]

In His Grace,

Ok Pilgrim , I know nothing .

Mark,
It is very frustrating to us here who keep trying to communicate with you when you will not interact with our posts to you. We have spent hours posting answers which you totally ignore. I fear for you , Mark that you are being supernaturally blinded by this false teaching you have embraced.
You try to make the law the "bad news," something that we are happy to be rid of. But this cannot work because the Spirit works through the Word of God which includes the moral law that God gives to His people as His standards.

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Romans 8 v.1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Notice that those who live according to the Spirit are not hostile to God and do submit to the Law.
There are two kinds of men:
1.Those who are in Christ have been set free from the law of sin and death--the penalty they deserved Christ has been taken away because of what Christ has done. The Spirit dwells in them and they "walk in the Spirit." They are NOT hostile to the law of God, but love his holy standards. The reason they want to submit to God's law is because of the Spirit who indwells them. They CAN please God. They have life and peace.
2. Those in the flesh have their minds set on the things of the flesh. They are not in Christ. They are NOT free from the law of sin and death, but are under its just condemnation. They do not have the Holy Spirit. They are hostile to God and do not submit to God's law and are unable to. They hate God's holy standards. They are dead in their sins and have no peace.

Now, which one are you Mark?

Number One I would hope Susan (Matthew7:20)

I am not going to talk Law/Gospel for a while or I might get into trouble like I did about Baptism . I have finished looking into WCF 19 for the time being.......

Thanks once again for the input from those who took part.
It was most interesting to say the least <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />