Matthew 12:40 - The Highway

Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a common Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone (who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" means the tomb) knows of any writing that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights?

So what exactly is the issue with "6th day crucifixion folks" and the "three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40"?

I'm not familiar with these folks, so perhaps if you would kindly share what it is they believe vs. what the historic confessional view of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ it might prove to be helpful to some of us like myself who aren't familiar with them.

Pilgrim,

re: "So what exactly is the issue with '6th day crucifixion folks'..."

They say that the 3 nights specified in Matthew 12:40 actually means 2 nights.

re: "I'm not familiar with these folks..."

At the risk of sounding flippant (maybe the wrong word) I don't see how that is possible - they're all over the place.

Welcome to The Highway Discussion Board rstrats. Glad to have you join us. You will find more information about who and what we are and rules on participating in the group in the FAQ section above.

I have to also say that I do not understand your question either. Who are these folks? Are they dispensationalists? I guess we need more information to go on.

Thank you.

In reverse order:

1. It IS possible since I am not familiar with the term designating such a group. Not being omniscient, there are things which I do not know. And given that there are myriad views held by myriad groups and individuals, it is a fact that I cannot and do not know them all.

2. Now on to the subject at hand, i.e., a proper exegesis of Matt 12:40. Again, I'm sure there are numerous ideas that people have in regard to this text, of which only one is correct, since the Bible is inspired; inerrant and infallible. I share my view with William Hendriksen, one of the great conservative, Reformed NT scholars. After having briefly discussed the correlation between Jonah being swallowed by a large 'sea monster' and having spent 3 days and 3 nights in its belly and the crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection of Christ; Jonah's experience being typological and Christ's experience being antitypical of it, he wrote:

Quote

Exactly how, in the case of Jonah, these three days and three nights were computed Scripture nowhere reveals. Were they three entire days and nights, seventy-two hours in all, or was the period of his stay in the belly of the “fish” one entire day plus parts of two other days? We do not know. We do know that in Esther 4:16 the third day cannot have been an entire day (see 5:1, “on the third day,” not “after the third day”). See also the apocryphal book Tobit 3:12, 13. To say, therefore, that in order to do justice to Matt. 12:40 Jesus must have been in the grave three entire days plus three entire nights is unreasonable. It is contrary to Jewish usage of such terms.

Nevertheless, again and again—sometimes in small pamphlets—the opinion will be advocated that according to Matt. 12:40 Jesus must have died and been buried on Thursday. This, however, is definitely wrong, for the inspired records tell us that these events took place on Friday, that is, on Paraskeue, this very word being used even in modern Greek to indicate Friday (Mark 15:42, 43; Luke 23:46, 54; John 19:14, 30, 42). Also, if the proponents of this “Jesus was buried on Thursday afternoon” theory demand that “three days” means three entire days, their theory will still fall short; and, on the other hand, if, as they see it, a part of a day must be figured as a day, the result is: too many days!

Neither is it entirely satisfactory to say that, while Jesus died indeed on Friday and rose again on Sunday morning, the solution is to be found in the fact that, as already proved, the Jews counted a part of the day as equal to a day, and a part of the night as amounting to a night. As far as the “days” are concerned, this would be a satisfactory explanation, but it would still leave us with only two nights, not three.

What then? Some, despairing of a solution, declare that the saying, though having been a part of the Gospel from the beginning, is spurious, never having been uttered by Jesus himself. There is, however, no good reason thus to cut the Gordian knot. The true solution probably lies in a different direction. When we say “the universe,” the ancients would say “heaven and earth.” So also, should not their expression “one day and one night” be taken to mean one time unit, one diurnal period, a part of one such period being taken as a whole? He was indeed in the heart of the earth three “days-and-three- nights,” that is during three of these time units.

Methinks Hendriksen has been extremely faithful to the text and that his understanding is the correct one. What do you think?

Pilgrim,

re: "It IS possible since I am not familiar with the term designating such a group."

I'm sorry. It's just that I've never come across anyone who hasn't heard of those (the majority of Christians actually) who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week.

re: "Now on to the subject at hand, i.e., a proper exegesis of Matt 12:40."

Actually, the purpose of the OP is to find - if it exists - some writing from the first century or before that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights was ever used when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights.

Originally Posted by rstrats

Actually, the purpose of the OP is to find - if it exists - some writing from the first century or before that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights was ever used when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights.

Hendriksen did quote several sources from Scripture and from one of the apocryphal books, Tobit to show exactly that, did he not?

Quote

Exactly how, in the case of Jonah, these three days and three nights were computed Scripture nowhere reveals. Were they three entire days and nights, seventy-two hours in all, or was the period of his stay in the belly of the “fish” one entire day plus parts of two other days? We do not know. We do know that in Esther 4:16 the third day cannot have been an entire day (see 5:1, “on the third day,” not “after the third day”). See also the apocryphal book Tobit 3:12, 13. To say, therefore, that in order to do justice to Matt. 12:40 Jesus must have been in the grave three entire days plus three entire nights is unreasonable. It is contrary to Jewish usage of such terms.

Is there something wrong with his sources?

Pilgrim,

re: "Is there something wrong with his sources?"

Nothing in the the Esther passages precludes at least a part of each one of the days and at least a part of each one of the nights. Also, I don't see what the Tobit reference has to do with days and nights.

1) 12 "Ate not nor drank for three days and three nights," and yet in the very next verse, "Then on the third day," the fast being ended. Similarly Esther 4:16 compared with 5:1. "Three days and three nights" is, therefore, not proverbial for "a brief time," nor can we say that Jesus is concerned only to obtain a parallel experience to that of Jonah as far as the number of days is concerned. The manner of numbering nights with the days is an idiomatic Jewish usage. As Jonah escaped on the third day, so Jesus arose on the third day. And since the Jewish day begins with the night (or evening), it is the night that forms part of the first day which seems to be overcounted, not the one that forms part of the third day - the Sunday of the resurrection began at dusk on Saturday.

2) Would you then conclude that Hendriksen's exegesis of Matt 12:40 re: the "days" of Christ being in the tomb is incorrect?

3) I would be interested in having you state what your view is on this subject. You have only stated that you reject the view that the majority of Evangelicals espouse (* few if any of the members here belong to that group). And, you have apparently rejected what Hendriksen and myself hold to be true, which your answer to #2 will either affirm or deny. But you haven't given us what your view is and the ramifications of it vs. the view held by myself and Hendriksen.

4) Yes, I believe that "heart of the earth" means the grave or tomb. What do you think it means?

Pilgrim,

re: "1) 12"

To what is the "12" referring?

re: "The manner of numbering nights with the days is an idiomatic Jewish usage."

And that is why I started this topic. If the 6th day crucifixion proponents are correct in their assertion that Matthew 12:40 is a common Jewish idiom where at least a part of a specified day and/or at least a part of a specified night does not actually have to exist, I would think that there would be at least one example to back up that assertion.

re: "Would you then conclude that Hendriksen's exegesis of Matt 12:40 re: the 'days' of Christ being in the tomb is incorrect?"

I'm not prepared to say that it IS correct because his suggestion that one day and one night might be taken to mean one time unit where at least a portion of the day and/or at least a portion of the night did not have to actually be involved has not yet been demonstrated with some actual writing from the period.

re: "I would be interested in having you state what your view is on this subject."

Because I'm not aware of any scripture that absolutely, positively, no question about it, requires the crucifixion to have occurred on the 6th day of the week, and since I've yet to see any "idiom" to the contrary, I see no reason to think that when the Messiah said 3 nights that He actually meant 2 nights.

re: "Yes, I believe that 'heart of the earth' means the grave or tomb. What do you think it means?"

I think that is indeed what it means.

Originally Posted by rstrats

Because I'm not aware of any scripture that absolutely, positively, no question about it, requires the crucifixion to have occurred on the 6th day of the week, and since I've yet to see any "idiom" to the contrary, I see no reason to think that when the Messiah said 3 nights that He actually meant 2 nights.

Unfortunately, that doesn't answer my question re: ramifications of your view. From my standpoint, still admitting I am not familiar with this "6th day" view, much to your chagrin, since it is well established that the resurrection occurred on the first day of the week, i.e. Sunday and the historic view of the crucifixion is that it occurred on Friday, your only choice would be to hold that the crucifixion actually occurred on Thursday. Would that be your position?

1. IF that is correct, what would be its significance vs. the historic view?

2. IF that is correct, who else besides yourself holds to this position?

Pilgrim,

re: " From my standpoint, still admitting I am not familiar with this '6th day' view..."
re: "...the crucifixion... occurred on Friday..."

You say you're not familiar with the idea of a 6th day of the week crucifixion. But then you go on to indicate that you are. What am I missing?

re: "...it is well established that the resurrection occurred on the first day of the week..."

There is only one verse (Mark 16:9) - as the KJV has it - that places the resurrection on the first day of the week. And that verse is by no means a slam dunk because many good study Bibles question whether the verse is authoritative or punctuated correctly.

re: "...the historic view of the crucifixion is that it occurred on Friday..."

Historic in the sense that that has been the majority opinion. But there are also historic opinions that the 6th day was not the day of the crucifixion.

re: "...your only choice would be to hold that the crucifixion actually occurred on Thursday.
Would that be your position?"

Yes, I think that the 5th day of the week is the more likely day, although I also think that the 4th day cannot absolutely be ruled out.

re: "1. IF that is correct, what would be its significance vs. the historic view?"

Other than negating the 6th day crucifixion view, it would mean that the Messiah was correct when He said that 3 nights would be involved.

re: "2. IF that is correct, who else besides yourself holds to this position?"

Below is a list of some Sabbath observing organizations of which most disagree with a 6th day of the week crucifixion.

1.1st Chronicles of the Living God Ministries Inc
2.11th Hour Apostolic Sabbatarian Church
3.7th Day Bible Church
4.7th Day Church of God
5.A Church of God Ministry
6.A Congregation in St. Louis
7.Aaronic Order (House of Aharon)
8.Abiding Faith In Truth Church Inc.
9.Abunda Life Church
10.Active Bible Church of God
11.Advent Fellowship of All Nations
12.Adventist Church of Promise
13.Ahtanum Community Church
14.Akron Fellowship
15.All Nations Assembly House of Prayer For All People
16.American Orthodox Catholic Church
17.American Society of Medical Missionary
18.Anointed Sabbath Ministries Inc
19.An Assembly of the Eternal's Called Out
20.Anointed Ministry Temple
21.Apostolic Assembly of Yahvah, inc
22.Apostolic Church of God, 7th Day
23.Apostolic Lighthouse Church
24.Apostolic Sacred Name Fellowship
25.Apostolic Truth Ministries Worldwide
26.Ark International
27.Assembled Believers Congregation
28.Assembles of the Called Out Ones of 'Yah,' Inc.
29.Assembles of Yahshua
30.Assembles of Yahweh
31.Assemblies of YaHVah
32.Assemblies of YaHVaHO SHA Worldwide Inc.
33.Assembly of Elohim
34.Assembly of God 7th Day
35.Assembly of God in Christ Jesus
36.Assembly of the Eternal, an independent Church of God
37.Assembly of the Firstborn
38.Assembly of Yah
39.Assembly of Yahowah, 7th Day
40.Assembly of Yahweh
41.Assembly of Yahweh Nigeria
42.Assembly with Elder Dale George
43.Assembled Believers Congregation
44.Association of 7th Day Pentecostal Assemblies
45.Atzzehret Yeshua Hakoom Messianic Congregation
46.Austin Fellowship
47.Austin Church of God
48.Australasian Conference of Seventh Day Baptists
49.Barnabas Ministries
50.Believer's Advocate
51.Believers in Christ Church of God
52.Berean Apostolic Faith Assembly
53.Berean Church of God
54.Bet Hashem Midrash
55.Bet Shavei-tzion International
56.Beth Ha Shofar (Messianic Congregation)
57.Beth Immanuel Sabbath Fellowship
58.Beth Israel Messianic Congregation
59.Beth Messiah Congregation
60.Beth Tikvah (House of Hope) - Newcastle, WA
61.Bible Sabbath Musicians' Association
62.Bibleway Church
63.Biblical Church of God Danville
64.Biblical Unitarian Churches of God
65.Blessed Hope Seventh Day Christian
66.Blessed Hope Mission Church
67.B'nai Yahshua Messianic Synagogue
68.Body of Christ Church of God
69.Branch of Jerusalem
70.Breath of Life
71.British Conference of Seventh Day Baptists
72.British Israel Church of God
73.Bro. Lester Anderson, Salem Acres
74.Brown, Frank and Connie
75.Building Bridges
76.C.A.L.
77.Canadian Church of God
78.Caribbean United Church
79.Celebration Church of God
80.Celina Independent Bible Study
81.Celtic Orthodox Church
82.Certain Place of the Seventh Day Chapel
83.Chapel-in-the-Ozarks
84.Charles Lindsey
85.Children of Promise
86.Children of Yah
87.Children of Yahvah
88.Children of Yahweh
89.Christ Fellowship Ministries (Church of God)
90.Christian Biblical Church of God
91.Christian Church of God, Inc.
92.Christian Churches of God
93.Christian Educational Ministries
94.Christian Family Church of God
95.Christian Fellowship Church
96.Christian Fellowship Church of God
97.Christian Fellowship Ministries of the Church of God
98.Christian Leadership Academy
99.Christian Renewal Ministries
100.Christian Sabbath Assembly
101.Christian Sabbath Keepers
102.Christians in Crisis
103.Christ Lion Ministries
104.Church of Biblical Truth
105.Church of Christ of Seventh Day
106.Church of God
107.Church of God, a Worldwide Association, Inc.
108.Church of God (Abrahamic Faith-Sabbath Keepers)
109.Church of God (Christianos)
110.Church of God (Iglesia de Dios)
111.Church of God 7th Day
112.Church of God 7th/Sabbath Day
113.Church of God a Christian Fellowship
114.Church of God an International Community
115.Church of God and Saints of Christ
116.Church of God Christ the Head
117.Church of God in the Netherlands (New Moon Seventh Day)
118.Church of God in the Wilderness
119.Church of God Independent
120.Church of God Messengers
121.Church of God Ministries, International
122.Church of God of the Eternal God
123.Church of God of the Seventh Day
124.Church of God Philadelphia Era
125.Church of God Proclaimed
126.Church of God Proclaiming the Kingdom
127.Church of God Providence
128.Church of God Restored
129.Church of God Sabbatarian
130.Church of God Sabbath Day
131.Church of God Seventh Day
132.Church of God Talent Ministries
133.Church of God the Ozarks
134.Church of God United
135.Church of God, an International Community
136.Church of God, In Truth, Inc. (Formerly Church of God's Truth)
137.Church of God, International
138.Church of God's Truth
139.Church of Israel
140.Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (STRANGITE)
141.Church of Jesus Christ, Sabbath Day
142.Church of The Adventist Fellowship
143.Church of the Great God
144.Church of the Living God
145.Church of the Living Yahweh
146.Church of the Lord Jesus Christ
147.Church of the Remnant Hope
148.Church of the Savior at Cincinnati
149.Church of the Sovereign God
150.Church State Council
151.Churches of God a Cooperative Fellowship
152.Churches of God Cyber Auxiliary
153.Community Church of God, Seventh Day
154.Congregacion De Yahweh
155.Congregation Beth Shalom
156.Congregation Beth Simcha
157.Congregation Beth Yeshua
158.Congregation Birth Hadoshah
159.Congregation B'nal Maccabim
160.Congregation of God Seventh Day
161.Congregation of Yahweh
162.Congregation of YHWH
163.Congregation Ohr Chadash
164.Cornerstone House of Prayer
165.Covenant Apostolic Churches, International
166.Covenant Mission in Canada
167.Dallas Congregation of the Almighty
168.David Alvin Gregg
169.Davis, Richard and Imogene
170.Deaf Assembly of YHWH
171.Disciples Church of God
172.Dove Christian Fellowship
173.East Texas Fellowship
174.Ecclesia Theos At Morristown TN
175.El Shaddai Ministries - Tacoma, WA
176.Elder Andrae Anthony
177.Elect Ministries of God
178.Eliyah Message
179.Elmer "Lee" Grose
180.Embassy of God
181.Embassy of Heaven Church
182.End Time Assembly of God
183.Eternal Church of God
184.Evangelical Christian Fellowships - Belgium
185.Evangelical Seventh Day Baptist Church
186.Evangelical Seventh Day Baptist Mission Service
187.Evangelistic Centre, Inc.
188.Evangelistic Church of Jesus Christ
189.Everlasting Church of God
190.Faith Bible and Tract Society
191.Faith, Hope and Charity; House of God, Inc.
192.Family Church of God
193.Faith of a Child Ministry
194.Family of God
195.Family of Yahweh
196.Family Sabbath Keepers
197.Father's House Sabbath Congregation
198.Fellowship Church of God
199.Fellowship of Missions
200.Fighters For Truth
201.Final Hours Ministry
202.Finding Truth Ministeries
203.First Assembly of Yahvah
204.First Century Church of God
205.First Deliverance Holiness Church
206.First Fruits of Zion
207.Foundation For Life Fellowship
208.Freedom Biblical Information
209.Freedom Church Of God
210.Freedom Road Ministries
211.Friends of the Sabbath
212.Friendship 7th Day Sabbath Church of God
213.General Association of Davidians SDA
214.German Seventh Day Baptists
215.Gig Harbor Sabbath Fellowship
216.Giving & Sharing
217.Global Church of God
218.God Cares We Care House of Prayer
219.God's Church in the Appleton- Green Bay area
220.God's Church Worldwide
221.God's Community
222.God's Family Fellowship
223.God's Last Call
224.God's Sabbath Rest
225.God's Storehouse
226.God's Work NOW! (Hold Fast To All Things)
227.Good News Unlimited
228.Gospel Celebration Fellowship
229.Gospel Fellowship
230.Grace Cowboy Church.
231.Green Pasture Gazette
232.Guard the Truth
233.Guardian Ministries
234.Hallelujah Fellowship
235.HalleluYah Assembly
236.Halleluyah Mission
237.Hartland Institute
238.Hatikure Ministries
239.Heartland Fellowship
240.Hebrew Israelites
241.Hebrew Roots
242.Hebrew to Christian Contact
243.Historic Adventists; 7th Day
244.Hold Fast to All Things
245.Holy Church of Christ Commandments of God
246.Holy Church of the Living God, Commandment Keepers
247.Holy Sabbath of Christ the King Mission International
248.Home Fellowship Assistance
249.Hope of Israel Ministries
250.House Church of Jesus Christ
251.Household of Israel Temple of Jesus Christ
252.House of God
253.House of God Hebrew Pentecostal Church
254.House of Prayer
255.House of the Eternal Church of the Living God
256.House of Yahshua Ministries, Inc
257.House of Yahvah
258.House of Yahweh
259.If You Love Me 7th Day Fellowship
260.Independent Church of God Sabbath Fellowship Group
261.Independent Church of God
262.Independent Church of God (Yahweh)
263.Independent Sabbath Church of God
264.India Assemblies of Messiah
265.Interactive Sabbath Fellowship
266.Intercontinental Church of God
267.Interdependent - Interactive Church Of God
268.Interdependent Church of God Sabbath Day
269.International Congregation of Yahweh
270.International Sanctuary Research Center
271.IMS Seventh Day Adventist Church Reform Movement
272.Internet Church of God
273.Israel Assemblies of Yahweh, Inc
274.Israel's Messiah Has Come!
275.Jackson Gap Assembly of Yahweh
276.Jubilee Cycle Research
277.Kansas City Church of God - Kansas City, MO
278.Katahdin Christian Community Church
279.Kehilat Ariel
280.Keith Siddens
281.Kingdom Missionaries
282.Kingdom on Earth of Y_H_W_H, the Sovereign
283.KYMAK
284.Last Age Church of God
285.Law and Grace Ministries
286.Lehigh Valley Sabbath Fellowship
287.Liberty Foundation (20th Century Church of God)
288.Lifeline Ministries
289.LifePointe Church of God
290.LifePointe Seventh-Day Remnant Church
291.Lifestyle in Faith Ministries
292.Lifetime Ministry Church
293.Links of Truth
294.Lion and Lamb Ministries
295.Lion of Judah Ministries
296.The Olive Branch
297.Little Children of Jesus Christ
298.Little Flock Fellowship
299.LIttle Flock International
300.Living Church of God
301.Living God Ministries, Montgomery Fellowship
302.Living Life Traditional Holiness Church
303.Living Room Church of God
304.Living Word COG 7th Day
305.Logos Apostolic Church of God and Bible College
306.Logos Apostolic Church of God (Doncaster) U.K
307.Love Song To the Messiah
308.Lyons Congregation
309.Malkaynu Shuva Ministries
310.Maranatha Ministries
311.MarkTab Ministries
312.Maryland Sabbath Fellowship
313.Menorah Ministries
314.Messianic Congregation
315.Messianic Faith Congregation
316.Messianic Hebrew Christian Fellowship
317.Messianic Israel Ministries (House of David)
318.Messianic Jew
319.Messianic Jewish Movement International
320.Messianic Liturgical Resources
321.Midlands Christian Church of God
322.Midnight Cry Society of the Church of God
323.Midnight Ministries
324.Ministry Publications
325.Missionary Body of Jesus Christ
326.Mount Sion Assembly of Yahvah
327.Mount Zion Chapel
328.Mount Zion Deeper Life Fellowship
329.Mountain Missionary Institute
330.Mt Zion Apostolic Church
331.Mt Zion Church of God 7th Day
332.Mt Zion Reporter
333.Music for the Church of God
334.Mystery of the Kingdom Ministry
335.Narrow Path
336.Nashville Sabbath Fellowship
337.Nation of Israel
338.National Eagle (Lee Clark)
339.New Beginnings
340.New Bethel House of Prayer
341.New Birth Assembly of Yahweh
342.New Covenant Apostolic Church
343.New Covenant Ministries
344.New Genesis Fellowship
345.New Israel Ind Assy of God
346.New Life & Health Ministries
347.New Life Christian Church
348.New Life Church of God Seventh Day
349.Nondenominational Sabbath Fellowship
350.Notre Dame de Grace
351.Oak Grove Community Church of God, 7th Day
352.Obedience Intercessory Ministry
353.Omega Praise Fellowship of Southern Oregon
354.Open Bible Fellowship
355.Open Door Bible Ministry, Inc.
356.Open Door Fellowship
357.Orange County Fellowship of God
358.Original Bible Project
359.Ozark Christian Fellowship
360.Pass It On Ministries
361.Pathway
362.Pentecostal Church of Zion, Inc.
363.People of the Living God
364.People's Christian Church
365.Petah Tikvah (Door of Hope)
366.Petah Tikvah Messianic Jewish Congregation
367.Philadelphia Church of God
368.Pine Belt Biblical Foundation
369.Plainer Truth
370.Points of Truth Christian Ministry
371.Praise Fellowship
372.Prisoner Outreach for Christ
373.Proclaiming the Sabbath More Fully
374.Prophetic Church of God
375.Pure Truth (APT Manual)
376.Radio Church of God
377.Reformation Church
378.Remnant Church of God
379.Remnant of God's People Church
380.Remnant of Israel
381.Remnant of Yahvah
382.Restoration Church of God
383.Restoration Fellowship
384.Restored Church of God
385.Rhema Tabernacle Ministries
386.Ribbon of Blue Ministries
387.S.E.E.D. ( Matthew 17:20 )
388.Sabbatarian Brethren BS Service at Bound Brook
389.Sabbatarian Christian Fellowship
390.Sabbatarian Church of God
391.Sabbath Assembly of God
392.Sabbath Bible Study Fellowship
393.Sabbath Church
394.Sabbath Day Believers
395.Sabbath Fellowship
396.Sabbath Keepers in White Robes
397.Sabbath Keeping Ten Commandment Church
398.Sabbath Research Center
399.Sabbath Seals
400.Sabbath Study Center
401.Sabbath-Keeping Church of God
402.Sacred Name Believers
403.Sacred Name Fellowship
404.Safe Haven Church of God
405.Saints of God Church International
406.San Diego Forum
407.Scattered Brethren
408.SDB Church Fellowship
409.Seek and Find Ministries
410.Servants' News
411.Seventh-day Adventist Church
412.Seventh-day Adventist Missionary Foundation
413.Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement
414.Seventh Day Assembly of Yahweh
415.Seventh Day Baptist Church
416.Seventh Day Baptist Church of God
417.Seventh Day Baptists, U.S.A. and Canada
418.Seventh Day Christian Assembly
419.Seventh Day Christian Assembly of the Church of God
420.Seventh Day Christian Church
421.Seventh Day Christian Conference
422.Seventh Day Church
423.Seventh Day Church of God
424.Seventh Day Church of God For All Faiths
425.Seventh Day Sabbatarian Mennonites
426.Shekinah Gold Ministries
427.Shema Yisrael Ministries
428.Simon Says (radio talk show)
429.Smyrna Gospel Ministries
430.Smyrna Seventh-day Sabbath Chapel
431.Snow Hill Society of German Seventh Day Baptists
432.Soldiers of the Cross of Christ Evangelical International Church
433.Southern Florida Christian Fellowship
434.Southern New Mexico Sabbath Fellowship
435.Southside Bible Church
436.Speak the Truth
437.Speaking Out...On Issues of Importance to Christians
438.Spectrum
439.Spirit of Jesus Sabbath Church
440.Stedfast Church of God
441.Synagogue Chavurat HaMashiach
442.Tabernacle of God
443.Talents Ministries
444.Temple Christ Messiah
445.The American Orthodox Catholic Church
446.The Apostolic Church of God in Christ
447.The Believers
448.The Believer's Advocate
449.The Bible Church of God
450.The Christian Church of God
451.The Church At Texas
452.The Church of Christ
453.The Church of God
454.The Church of God 7th Day
455.The Church Of God In America
456.The Church of God and Christ
457.The Church Of God Sabbath-Keeping
458.The Church of God, Jerusalem (World Headquarters)
459.The Church of God, Ministries International
460.The Community In Boston
461.The Congregation of Christ
462.The Congregation of God
463.The Congregation of God Seventh Day Association
464.The Congregation of Yahweh
465.The Creation 7th Day *Adventist Church
466.The First Assembly of Yahvah
467.The Folsom Area Sabbath Bible Study Fellowship
468.The Gen'l Assembly of the Congregations of God
469.The Haven of Living Water
470.The Hevener Church - 224 Mohele Road, Farmville, Va.23901
471.The House of God
472.The House of Prayer of DePauw, IN
473.The House of Yahweh
474.The Jerusalem Sentinel
475.The Messianic Assemblies of Yahweh
476.The Original Bible Project
477.The People's Christian Church
478.The Pure Truth
479.The Pure Gospel Of Jesus Christ Ministries
480.The Quiet Hour
481.The Registry
482.The Scriptural Church of God
483.The Seventh Day Church of God
484.The Society of the White Rose
485.The Toledo Congregation of the House of YaHVaH
486.The Total Truth
487.The True Church of Christ [The Church of Christ]
488.The Way Publications (Sabbath Bible Study Fellowship
489.Thomas C. Taylor
490.Thomaston Church
491.To the Elect Church of God
492.Toledo Congregation of YaHVaH
493.Total Truth
494.Tower of Prayer 7th Day Assembly Holy Spirit Believers
495.Tree of Life Fellowship
496.Triumph Church of God (Triumph Prophetic Ministries)
497.Triumph Prophetic Ministries
498.True Jesus Church
499.Truth Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ
500.Truth On The Web Ministries
501.Truth Search Ministries
502.Truthseekers
503.Twentieth Century Church of God
504.Two Witness Ministries
505.Uchee Pines Institute
506.Union of Messianic Jewish Congregation
507.United Biblical Church of God
508.United Christian Ministries
509.United Church of God
510.United Church of the Lord Our Righteousness
511.United Hebrew Congregations
512.United House of God
513.Universal Church of God
514.Unknown Truth Fellowship Workers (UTFW)
515.Valley Christian Fellowship
516.Virginia Christian Israelites
517.Virginia Sabbath Fellowship
518.Voice in the Wilderness
519.Voice of Unity
520.Western Maryland Sabbath Fellowship
521.Western Nebraska Congregation of God
522.Whole Armor
523.Wilderness Ministries
524.Willamette Sabbath Fellowship
525.World Insight International
526.Worldwide Church of God
527.Worldwide House of Yahuweh
528.YAH Prince of Peace Nazarene Ysraelite Congregation
529.Yah's Youth & Family Program
530.Yahshua Messiah International Congregation, Inc.
531.Yahvahshua Nazarene Mission
532.Yahwah's New Covenant Assembly
533.Yahweh's Assembly in Messiah
534.Yahweh's House of Prayer
535.Yahweh's Messianic Fellowship
536.Yahweh's New Covenant Assembly
537.Yahweh's New Life Assembly
538.Yehowshu'wa Intl. Assemblies Ministry
539.Yeshua Chai Messianic Synagogue
540.Yorusho Aleim Liberation Movement

Perhaps someone new looking in will know of some writing.

Originally Posted by rstrats

You say you're not familiar with the idea of a 6th day of the week crucifixion. But then you go on to indicate that you are. What am I missing?

Fingers?

Originally Posted by rstrats

Historic in the sense that that has been the majority opinion. But there are also historic opinions that the 6th day was not the day of the crucifixion.

Majority does not automatically equate with right. That's an indisuputable fact. Nor does longevity of a view held automatically make it correct. However, when the overwhelming majority of 'professing' Christian churches which differ on other matters all agree on a particular issue, then this carries much weight. Add to that the antiquity of the view, going all the way back to the Church Fathers, iterated by the Protestant Reformers, echoed by the Puritans and even by the Evanjellycal Fundementalists, you have a formidable task to show that this view is incorrect.

Originally Posted by rstrats

Other than negating the 6th day crucifixion view, it would mean that the Messiah was correct when He said that 3 nights would be involved.

I learned something new about you; you have a bit of a sense of humor. NO ONE is disputing the "words" recorded that Jesus spoke. What is not agreed upon is the "meaning" of those words. It's a hermeneutical issue which affects its application as well. When Jesus said, "I am the door..." (Jh 10:7,9), do you actually believe that He was describing his physical makeup and appearance, i.e., a "door"?

Or, perhaps Jesus traveled around with tendrils since He said, "I am the vine..." (Jh 15:5), and His believers belong to His agrarian society since they are "branches"?

Obviously, the point attempting to be made is that language is not a simple, static thing but rather it is complex and one has to study it to come to understand it and how to use it. The "plain meaning" idea simply doesn't work. That is why the confessional churches all adhere to the "Grammatico-Historico" hermeneutic. The grammar must be understood and respected before one can 'rightly divide the Word of truth' (2Tim 2:15).

Originally Posted by rstrats

Below is a list of some Sabbath observing organizations of which most disagree with a 6th day of the week crucifixion.

That's quite the list, which I am sure you didn't spend hours researching but contrariwise, you had at hand for occasions like this which I am fully convinced is what you do; travel from forum to forum pushing your unique doctrines... true?

I guess what I should have done was to have been more specific in asking my question, e.g., "Who else among confessional, conservative Christian churches holds to this view?" I think there would be no list of groups in that case.

chestnutmare,

re: " I guess we need more information to go on."

I don't understand. Why is additional information required in order to provide the writing requested in the OP?

Since it has been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, and who thinks that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language so that 3 nights actually means 2 nights, will know of some writing.

Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in will know of some writing.

chestnutmare,

You have a question directed to you in post #50301.

Pilgrim,

re: " "Who else among confessional, conservative Christian churches holds to this view? I think there would be no list of groups in that case."

Not knowing your definition of "confessional, conservative Christian churches" makes it impossible for me to say. Are they those who say that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week?

Originally Posted by rstrats

Pilgrim,

re: " "Who else among confessional, conservative Christian churches holds to this view? I think there would be no list of groups in that case."

Not knowing your definition of "confessional, conservative Christian churches" makes it impossible for me to say. Are they those who say that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week?

"confessional, conservatiave Christian churches" = All the historic Reformed confessions and catechisms which have been written, e.g., Helvetic Confessions, Thirty-Nine Articles, Belgic Confession, Westminster Confession, Westminster larger and Shorter Catechisms, London Baptist Confession, Savoy Declaration, Heidelberg Catechism, etc., all of which have been recognized in the true historic Protestant churches across denominational lines as being faithful summary statements of biblical teaching.

Pilgrim,

In answer to your question I have to say that I don't know. Are you saying that all those organizations believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week?

Originally Posted by rstrats

Pilgrim,

In answer to your question I have to say that I don't know. Are you saying that all those organizations believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week?

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying... i.e., what Dr. William Hendriksen wrote and which I quoted for you HERE and explained further in my subsequent replies is representative of historic Protestantism and held by all the framers of all the confessions and catechisms of the various denominations and churches which are part of the true Church. Jesus was buried on Friday and rose on Sunday. If that is what you are referring to as the "6th Day" view, then that is what is held to be true by them.

The disciples certainly held that view and that's one of the major reasons why they began meeting on Sunday, the first day of the week vs. Saturday which was the Jewish sabbath. THIS is what I believe is where you want to go with this, correct? You are trying to lay a foundation to justify Saturday as the 'true' Sabbath rather than Sunday, correct?

Let me add a little more of Hendriksen's exegesis of Matthew 12:40 and specifically on this matter of when was Jesus buried and how long he was in the tomb before His resurrection:

Quote

Nevertheless, again and again-sometimes in small pamphlets-the opinion will be advocated that according to Matt. 12:40 Jesus must have died and been buried on Thursday. This, however, is definitely wrong, for the inspired records tell us that these events took place on Friday, that is, on Paraskeue, this very word being used even in modern Greek to indicate Friday (Mark 15:42, 43; Luke 23:46, 54; John 19:14, 30, 42). Also, if the proponents of this "Jesus was buried on Thursday afternoon" theory demand that "three days" means three entire days, their theory will still fall short; and, on the other hand, if, as they see it, a part of a day must be figured as a day, the result is: too many days!

Neither is it entirely satisfactory to say that, while Jesus died indeed on Friday and rose again on Sunday morning, the solution is to be found in the fact that, as already proved, the Jews counted a part of the day as equal to a day, and a part of the night as amounting to a night. As far as the "days" are concerned, this would be a satisfactory explanation, but it would still leave us with only two nights, not three.

What then? Some, despairing of a solution, declare that the saying, though having been a part of the Gospel from the beginning, is spurious, never having been uttered by Jesus himself. There is, however, no good reason thus to cut the Gordian knot. The true solution probably lies in a different direction. When we say "the universe," the ancients would say "heaven and earth." So also, should not their expression "one day and one night" be taken to mean one time unit, one diurnal period, a part of one such period being taken as a whole? He was indeed in the heart of the earth three "days-and-three-nights," that is during three of these time units.

Pilgrim,

re: "The disciples certainly held that view and that's one of the major reasons why they began meeting on Sunday, the first day of the week vs. Saturday which was the Jewish sabbath."

I'm not aware of any scripture that says that the disciples began meeting on the first day of the week in recognition of the resurrection. What do you have in mind?

re: "THIS is what I believe is where you want to go with this, correct? You are trying to lay a foundation to justify Saturday as the 'true' Sabbath rather than Sunday, correct?"

Not for the purpose of this topic. I simply am interested in what is requested in the OP.

Since it's been awhile, someone new looking in may know of some writing.

A further rewording of the OP may make it a bit more clear. The Messiah said that 3 night times would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth". However, there are those who believe that the Messiah died on the 6th day of the week and who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the time between the leaving of His spirit from His body and His resurrection on the 1st day of the week. But this belief allows for only 2 night times to be involved. To reconcile this discrepancy some say that the Messiah was using common Jewish idiomatic language. I am simply asking for examples to support that assertion; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.

Hi rstrats,

I see that you have had suitable responses and it appears that you simply are rejecting them for some reason. Why is that? Is there something that you wish to put forward? Something that the church has throughout history not discovered before you? Why are you rejecting Hendricksen's explanation?

chestnutmare,
re: "Why are you rejecting Hendricksen's explanation?

I'm afraid I still don't see where Hendricksen - or anyone else for that matter - has provided examples which show that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.

Read the quotes Pilgrim posted on Hendricksen again, I believe I read what you are looking for there.
Unfortunately, I am heading to bed right now or I would quote where.

Tom

Tom,
re: "Read the quotes Pilgrim posted on Hendricksen again,"

I still don't find where he has provided examples which show that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.

Sorry I can't make heads or tails of what you are trying to say?

Tom

Tom,
re: "Sorry I can't make heads or tails of what you are trying to say?"

The Messiah said that 3 night times would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth".

There are those who believe that the Messiah died on the 6th day of the week and who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the time between the leaving of His spirit from His body and His resurrection on the 1st day of the week.

But this belief allows for only 2 night times to be involved between the time of His death and the time of His resurrection.

To reconcile this discrepancy some say that the Messiah was using common Jewish idiomatic language.

I am simply asking for examples to support that assertion; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise.

Originally Posted by rstrats

I am simply asking for examples to support that assertion; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise.

I provided them and several others have confirmed that they have been provided... The problem is that you either don't like them or reject them without cause.

Pilgrim,
re: " I provided them..."

I haven't seen where you have done that. And it appears that you don't want to point out where you think that you have.

Originally Posted by rstrats

Pilgrim,
re: " I provided them..."

I haven't seen where you have done that. And it appears that you don't want to point out where you think that you have.

Here are the places I provided solid evidence that both supports the historic Christian view and refutes several erroneous views:

- Dec 7, 2013 02:32 PM

- Dec 8, 2013 05:25 PM

- Sept 17, 2014 10:04 AM

Pilgrim,

re: "Dec 7, 2013 02:32 PM"
re: "Dec 8, 2013 05:25 PM"
re: "Sept 17, 2014 10:04 AM"

I still don't see where any examples are provided in those posts to show that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.

I just went through this whole thread again and have concluded that Pilgrim's answers do indeed provide a logical answer to your query. The problem seems to be you just don't understand; or you reject what was said.

Tom

Tom,

Exactly what is it that you think I am asking?

Since it's that time of year, perhaps someone new looking in will know of examples.

Isn't the all important question here whether jesus actually rose from the grave, not on what day that he died on?

JesusFan,
re: "Isn't the all important question here whether jesus actually rose from the grave, not on what day that he died on?"

That would be a question for a different topic since that is not what I'm asking.

I mustbe misunderstanding you here, what was the gist of your question then?

JesusFan,
re: "I mustbe misunderstanding you here, what was the gist of your question then?"

OK, let my repeat:
The Messiah said that 3 night times would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth".

There are those who believe that the Messiah died on the 6th day of the week and who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the time between the leaving of His spirit from His body and His resurrection on the 1st day of the week.

But this belief allows for only 2 night times to be involved between the time of His death and the time of His resurrection.

To reconcile this discrepancy some say that the Messiah was using common Jewish figure of speech/colloquial language.

I am simply asking for examples to support that assertion; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise.

Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in may know of examples.

Originally Posted by rstrats

Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in may know of examples.

Are you a 7-day Adventist?

Anthony C.
re: "Are you a 7-day Adventist?"

No. Any particular reason for asking?

Anthony,

I ask because I'm wondering why you might need to know if I'm a 7th day Adventist in order for you to be responsive to the OP request?

Perhaps someone new visiting this topic may know of examples.

Anthony C.,

You have a question directed to you in post #54945.

1 day and night refers to one calendar day, a part of which is often counted as the whole. Christ would have been dead on Friday, Saturday, and early morning on the 1st day of the week (the Christian Sabbath), per Matthew 28, etc.

Now, an example of this there is in the book of Esther which has been given to you and to which you haven't responded:

Esther 4:16
Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.

There is made mention of fasting 3 days, night and day. And yet verse 5 on the third day she has a banquet,

Esther 5:1
Now it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king's house, over against the king's house: and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house, over against the gate of the house.

The expression three days and three nights therefore allows for partial days in the reckoning expressed by the whole. So John Gill also gives other examples from Jewish writing,

"So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. That Christ means himself by the "son of man", there is no reason to doubt; and his being laid in a tomb, dug out of a rock, is sufficient to answer this phrase, "the heart of the earth", in distinction from the surface of it; but some difficulty arises about the time of his continuing there, and the prediction here made agreeable to the type: for it was on the sixth day of the week, we commonly call "Friday", towards the close, on the day of the preparation for the sabbath, and when the sabbath drew on, that the body of Christ was laid in the sepulchre; where it lay all the next day, which was the sabbath of the Jews, and what we commonly call "Saturday"; and early on the first of the week, usually called "Sunday", or the Lord's day, he rose from the dead; so that he was but one whole day, and part of two, in the grave. To solve this difficulty, and set the matter in a clear light, let it be observed, that the three days and three nights, mean three natural days, consisting of day and night, or twenty four hours, and are what the Greeks call νυχθημερα, "night days"; but the Jews have no other way of expressing them, but as here; and with them it is a well known rule, and used on all occasions, as in the computation of their feasts and times of mourning, in the observance of the passover, circumcision, and divers purifications, that מקצת היום ככולו, "a part of a day is as the whole"F14T. Hieros. Pesach. fol. 31. 2. T. Bab. Moed. Katon, fol. 16. 2. 17. 2. 19. 2. & 20. 2. Bechorot, fol. 20. 2. & 21. 1, Nidda, fol. 33. 1. Maimon. Hilch. Ebel, c. 7. sect. 1, 2, 3. Aben Ezra in Lev. xii. 3. : and so, whatever was done before sun setting, or after, if but an hour, or ever so small a time, before or after it, it was reckoned as the whole preceding, or following day; and whether this was in the night part, or day part of the night day, or natural day, it mattered not, it was accounted as the whole night day: by this rule, the case here is easily adjusted; Christ was laid in the grave towards the close of the sixth day, a little before sun setting, and this being a part of the night day preceding, is reckoned as the whole; he continued there the whole night day following, being the seventh day; and rose again early on the first day, which being after sun setting, though it might be even before sun rising, yet being a part of the night day following, is to be esteemed as the whole; and thus the son of man was to be, and was three days and three nights in the grave; and which was very easy to be understood by the Jews;"

More similar comments from sound commentators, not hard to look up,

Matthew Poole:

Answer: What we call day and night made up the Jewish nychtemerai;. It appears by Gen 1:5, that the evening and the morning made up a day. Three days and three nights is with us but the same thing with three natural days, and so it must be understood here. Christ was in the grave three natural days, that is, part of three natural days; every one of which days contained a day and a night, viz. twenty-four hours.

Matthew Henry:

He (Christ) continued in the grave just as long as Jonah continued in the fish's belly, three days and three nights; not three whole days and nights: it is probable, Jonah did not lie so long in the whale's belly, but part of three natural days (nychthemerai, the Greeks called them); he was buried in the afternoon of the sixth day of the week, and rose again in the morning of the first day; it is a manner of speech very usual;

see 1Ki 20:29
And they pitched one over against the other seven days. And so it was, that in the seventh day the battle was joined: and the children of Israel slew of the Syrians an hundred thousand footmen in one day.

Est 4:16; Est 5:1; Luk 2:21 So long Jonah was a prisoner for his own sins, so long Christ was a Prisoner for ours.

Albert Barnes

Three days and three nights - It will be seen in the account of the resurrection of Christ that he was in the grave but two nights and a part of three days. This computation is, however, strictly in accordance with the Jewish mode of reckoning. If it had “not” been, the Jews would have understood it, and would have charged our Saviour as being a false prophet, for it was well known to them that he had spoken this prophecy,

Mat 27:63
Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

Such a charge, however, was never made; and it is plain, therefore, that what was “meant” by the prediction was accomplished. It was a maxim, also, among the Jews, in computing time, that a part of a day was to be received as the whole. Many instances of this kind occur in both sacred and profane history.

See 2Ch 10:5
And he said unto them, Come again unto me after three days. And the people departed

2Ch 10:12
So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day, as the king bade, saying, Come again to me on the third day.

Gen 42:17-18
17 And he put them all together into ward three days. 18 And Joseph said unto them the third day, This do, and live; for I fear God

Compare Est 4:16 with Est 5:1.

John Trapp commentary

So shall the Son of man be three days, etc.

Taking a part for the whole. So Esther fasted three days and three nights, Esther 4:16, and yet on the third day she went to the king, Esther 5:1. So, then, the fast lasted not three whole days and nights, but two nights, one full day, and two pieces of days.

Jesus says (Matthew 16:21) that he will "be raised again the third day." Hence, in Jewish usage {the third day} must mean the same as {three days and three nights}. It was and is customary with the Orientals to make any part of the day stand for the whole twenty-four hours. Compare

Matthew 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mark 8:31
And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Matthew 27:63-64
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

AlexM,

re: "1 day and night refers to one calendar day, a part of which is often counted as the whole. Christ would have been dead on Friday, Saturday, and early morning on the 1st day of the week (the Christian Sabbath), per Matthew 28, etc. Now, an example of this there is in the book of Esther which has been given to you and to which you haven't responded:"

I responded to the Esther account in post #50254.

re: "There is made mention of fasting 3 days, night and day. And yet verse 5 on the third day she has a banquet,"

3 days, night and day is not necessarily the same thing as 3 days and 3 nights; but even it is, nothing in the Esther account precludes at least a portion of 3 daytimes and at least a portion on 3 night times. Thus the account is not an example where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have been involved. Likewise, none of your commentators' quotes provide any such examples.

Sure they do! All the examples show part of a day being counted for the whole. She didnt fast on the night time of the third day, her fast, as Trapp delineates, lasted 2 nights, one full day, and two peices of days.

Also, Gill provides literature from Jews speaking of reckoning part of a day as a whole, and how day and night refers to a calendar day.

There is also the matter of Christ himself saying he would rise on the third day, not after the third night, which further supports this understanding of the idiom.

I'm not sure if you're being selective or skimming, or what.

Anglican forum
AlexM,
re: "Sure they do! She didnt fast on the night time of the third day..."

Where does the account show that she couldn't have fasted during any portion of the night time of the third calendar day?

re: "Also, Gill provides literature from Jews speaking of reckoning part of a day as a whole, and how day and night refers to a calendar day."

That's an issue for a different topic.

re: "There is also the matter of Christ himself saying he would rise on the third day, not after the third night, which further supports this understanding of the idiom."

That's an issue for a different topic.

re: "I'm not sure if you're being selective or skimming, or what."

I don't understand what that means. I wonder if you might elaborate.

Turns out you are being selective because you're dismissing relevant points as issues "for another topic".

They are very relevant for this topic.

As for Esther, my point is about the use of idiom. She says she will fast three days night and day and "then" go to see the king, but then she goes to see him on the third day, which obviously could not have been after having fasted on the third night as well, becuause she didnt wait until after the third night to go see him.

AlexM,
re: "Turns out you are being selective because you're dismissing relevant points as issues 'for another topic'."

I have not dismissed any relevant points with regard to the issue of this topic because there haven't been any. What I'm dismissing are comments that have been made for a different topic. This one is concerned with one issue and only one issue, i.e., the issue with regard to the commonality of saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.

re: "As for Esther, my point is about the use of idiom. She says she will fast three days night and day and THEN go to see the king, but then she goes to see him on the third day, which could have been after having fasted on the third night as well.

And that is what I am saying - that at least a part of a third night could have been involved, therefore the Esther account is not an example where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.

How can you demonstrate part of the night time was involed when Esther went to see him on the third day? Which means, before night time.

And yes you have dismissed them because those examples all speak of something happening *after* a calendar day, and then the thing is said to take place on the day, not after, which means the night was not included.

I think I see the problem. You're using a sunrise to sunrise calendar day and I'm using a sundown to sundown calendar day. I will need to add that to my next clarification of the OP.

I haven't studied the issue of the calendar too much in-depth, but I recently came across one reformed author who believes its biblically meant to be sunrise to sunrise.

https://reformedbooksonline.com/when-does-the-lords-day-begin/

"The most plausible passage for an evening-reckoning of the Sabbath in the New
Testament, concerning the events of Jesus’ burial and the buying of spices on Friday
evening (Lk. 23:50-56), is found to be incompatible with an evening-reckoning and
consistent with the morning-view. "

I'm not sure it materially affects the sign of Jonah the Saviour was intending.

Further clarification of the OP:

1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth".

2. There are some who believe that a calendar day begins and ends at sunset.

3. Of those there are some who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

4. Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when His spirit left His body).

5. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

6. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of those mentioned above say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.

7. I wonder if anyone who falls in that above group of believers might provide examples to support that belief of commonality; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.

Do your beliefs include a seventh-day sabbath?

Meta4,
re: "Do your beliefs include a seventh-day sabbath?"

That's an issue for a different topic.

Originally Posted by rstrats

Meta4,
re: "Do your beliefs include a seventh-day sabbath?"

That's an issue for a different topic.

Hmm... that seems to be your stock reply to any answer which you do not like, or to any question which you wish to avoid.

People may be more willing to engage in conversation with you, if you were more forthcoming about your own position.

Meta4,
re: "Hmm... that seems to be your stock reply to any answer which you do not like..."

Why should I like non-applicable replies?

re: "... or to any question which you wish to avoid."

I have unfortunately let myself get drawn off topic and have answered a number of questions. As for your question "Do your beliefs include a seventh-day sabbath?" please explain why you need an answer in order to provide examples.

re: "People may be more willing to engage in conversation with you, if you were more forthcoming about your own position."

First off I'm not looking for conversation - only examples. And secondly, while I have given a number of positions, none of them, or for that matter any other ones, are nesessary for being able to provide examples.

Originally Posted by rstrats

First off I'm not looking for conversation

That much, at least, is true. You have repeatedly demonstrated in this thread, and in others, that you have no interest at all in what anyone else has to say, unless it lines up entirely with your own opinion.

By being secretive, you lead others to believe that you have something to hide. By refusing to answer certain questions, or to make your own position known, you arouse suspicions and simply alienate others.

For five years you have continued to hammer away at this same point, all the while rejecting the answers you have received and repeating your mantra of "That's an issue for a different topic." Honestly, I don't know what you think you will achieve by doing so.

Why don't you open up, and tell us where you stand, and exactly what your purpose and reasoning is in asking this question? Who knows, perhaps you will find that there are others on this forum who agree with your position.

Meta4,
re: "Why don't you open up, and tell us where you stand, and exactly what your purpose and reasoning is in asking this question? "

My stance/position is that if someone asserts that it was common in the 1st century or before to forecast or say that a daytime or a night would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur, then that person would have to know of examples in order to legitimately make the assertion of commonality. That is this topic's only issue. And I'm simply curious if it was indeed common usage of the time.

BTW, you have a couple of questions directed to you in post #55417.

Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new visiting this topic may know of examples.

What makes you think anyone can improve on what has already been said?
I think the answers that have been given by Pilgrim and others are excellent.

Tom,
re: "What makes you think anyone can improve on what has already been said?"

Optimism.

re: "I think the answers that have been given by Pilgrim and others are excellent."

Maybe for a different topic. But for this particular one I still don't see where they have provided examples which show that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.

I think that has been answered sufficiently; I can't add to it.

Tom

Tom,
re: "I think that has been answered sufficiently..."

I wonder if you might point out the post which provides examples? I haven't seen any.

Someone new looking in may know of examples.

Meta4,

You have a couple of questions directed to you in post #55417.

Originally Posted by rstrats

Meta4,

You have a couple of questions directed to you in post #55417.

After more than five years, across four pages, you have consistently refused to answer questions put to you by others. Why would you feel you have the right to demand answers from others?

Meta4,
re: "After more than five years, across four pages, you have consistently refused to answer questions put to you by others. Why would you feel you have the right to demand answers from others?

On page one I was asked 11 questions. I responded to each one.

On page two I was asked 5 questions. I responded to 2 on page two. The other 3 were touched on in replies on page one.

One page 3 I was asked 4 questions. I responded to each one.

One page 4 I was asked 1 question. I responded to it.

One page 5 I was asked 3 questions. I responded to each one.

One page 6 I was asked 1 question, i.e., "Why would you feel you have the right to demand answers from others?" I never demanded answers from anyone. I've asked them questions about their comments and have merely pointed out to those who haven't replied that they have questions directed to them.

Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new visiting this topic may know of examples.

Tom,

You have a question directed to you in post #55507 on page 5.

Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new visiting this topic may know of examples. And that "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.