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Posted By: Tom NeoCalvinism - Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:18 PM
On another thread I started, Anthony mentioned
I am starting this thread because my question
is not in keeping with the other discussion.

Anthony mentioned NeoCalvinism and it got me a bit curious.

Lately in discussions, NeoCalvinism, have been
brought up fairly often in discussions, particularly
about how we as believers should be responding to
Government Covid mandates etc...
At first when they mentioned it, I thought
they were talking about “Theonomy”. However, I soon
found out Theonomy had nothing to do with
what they were talking about.Though it seemed to be related.

However, most of it was going over my head; so I dropped
out of the discussion.

I thought perhaps, by bringing it up here. Someone could shed some light on the subject.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: NeoCalvinism - Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:26 PM
First, please define "NeoCalvinism".

There are two schools which are known by that term:

1. In the 19th century, Abraham Kuyper (Dutch Calvinist) made popular what he coined as "Sphere Sovereignty" which you can search for online rather than me taking time to explain it all to you. evilgrin

2. More recently, that term is better known as "New Calvinism" whose better known advocates are Tim Keller, D.A. Carson, Ligon Duncan, John Piper and Mark Driscoll. For more information on this group which includes "The Gospel Coalition", do a search for "New Calvinists" on The Highway main page search feature.

Perhaps there is yet another group or movement that is totally different which I am not familiar with? shrug
Posted By: Anthony C. Re: NeoCalvinism - Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:52 AM
Yeah, I was thinking more #2 New Calvinism, which seems to have faded from the scene (or at least lost some of its distinctiveness).
Posted By: Tom Re: NeoCalvinism - Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:38 PM
I am referring to the beliefs associated with Abraham Kuyper and sphere sovereignty.
Many seem to believe that Kuyper’s sphere sovereignty, is One Kingdom Theology.
However, the older version of Two Kingdom Theology, held by the writers of a confession such as the 1689 LBCF, would say
that TKT and Sphere Sovereignty are compatible.

I am finding the issue quite complex.

Posted By: Pilgrim Re: NeoCalvinism - Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:17 PM
Just a VERY brief note on, "TKT (Two Kingdom Theology) and Sphere Sovereignty are compatible".

1. Those advocating this view are most likely TKT (Merideth Kline) supporters. Don't the FV advocates claim that their view is compatible with the WCF? scratchchin

2. From my own knowledge of Kuyper's "Sphere Sovereignty", it isn't compatible with any orthodox Reformed theology. It puts "Theology" at the top of the heap of the various 'disciples', e.g., science, mathematics, chemistry, etc... BUT giving credence to a view that all other "natural sciences" have some truth which should be recognized by Theology and used to 'properly' understand Scripture has led to myriad aberrant views. Theistic Evolution, Framework Theory of origins, etc. are all the result of the melding of human philosophy and science done by pagans to one degree or another with Scripture. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Tom Re: NeoCalvinism - Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:58 PM
From what I am reading so far about most who resist getting vaccinated and are going against the government’s mandates.
They are mostly using Kuyper’s Sphere Sovereignty in their arguments.

Most say that Kuyper Sphere Sovereignty and One Kingdom Theology are what Kuyper has in mind.
However, others who hold to TKT, say that they actually use Kuyper’s Sphere Sovereignty as a model.
Mainly because God is sovereign over all creation, but He does so in two different ways.
With our governments for example, any power out government’s do have are given by God and we ought
to obey them. Except when it means choosing between obeying God or obeying our government.
With these government mandates, they are forcing many to do just that.

Among TKT however, there seems to be a lot of differences.
For example, many Churches who hold to TKT, such as those in the Gospel Coalition (Canada and the U.S.) believe
the government is within their rights to do what they are doing.

For example, one prominent member of the Gospel Coalition said he believes John MacArthur may have ruined all these years of ministry by his stand against the government.
I of course have no use for the Gospel Coalition.

Concerning Kline, in my reading so far, I have not heard his name come up.

Posted By: Pilgrim Re: NeoCalvinism - Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:07 AM
Originally Posted by Tom
Except when it means choosing between obeying God or obeying our government.
With these government mandates, they are forcing many to do just that. (quoting someone else)
I must disagree, which I have done here several times already on this and similar issues dealing with gov't orders. When the country has a founding document such as the United States Constitution which GUARANTEES God-given INALIENABLE (shall not/cannot be infringed) RIGHTS, citizens are under no obligation to obey such ILLEGAL orders. Here, in the U.S. this is something which has been recognized by all agencies, e.g., military and law enforcement. No soldier nor police officer is required to obey any order/command which violates those rights and freedoms recognized in the Constitution Bill of Rights. The vaccine mandates from employers, governors, Congress, the President or any court are illegal. The same is true for lock downs where the right to freely practice one's religion or gather together in a peaceful assembly or to own and have on one's possession a firearm, etc. are prohibited. All other governmental laws, orders, etc. are to be obeyed which do not require a Christian to do that which God has forbidden or to not do what God has commanded. I know in Canada there is the Constitution and the amendment of the Charter of Rights. I do not know the exact wording of those documents, but I am going to assume that they likewise GUARANTEE certain rights and freedoms of all citizens which cannot be infringed upon by anyone and particularly the government. Actually, if one understand the U.S. Constitution, the Bill of Rights was written to limit the government in its powers, thus preserving the freedoms enumerated therein. No citizen in the U.S. need 'ask for permission' of the government to exercise ANY of the rights and freedoms guaranteed to them. Those freedoms are innate to all citizens who have not been found guilty of some serious crime.

So, those who you keep mentioning who think that Christians are obligated to obey their respective government orders, laws, policies without question, allowing for only biblical commandments to obey or biblical prohibitions, are potentially incorrect where the country they live in has a founding document which guarantees certain specific rights and freedoms to its citizens. If the government oversteps its authority and infringes upon those rights and freedoms, the government is guilty of a crime and is subject to punishment by the judicial system. Admittedly, in real life, this rarely happens, although the Supreme Court in the U.S. has overruled governmental laws, policies, mandates. In fact, there are a few cases being considered and some due to be considered by SCOTUS where states have enacted laws which are clearly anti-Constitution, e.g., the right of every citizen to own and bear arms, the right to life of the unborn, the right of citizens to own certain types of firearms, magazine capacities, etc. Hopefully, the court will rule against all these laws and restrictions which it has done in the past. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Tom Re: NeoCalvinism - Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:03 AM

I am afraid the problem is with my wording, not what I meant.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, both in Canada and the USA politicians swear to uphold their Constitutions. What I said, is actually incomplete without that in mind.

You are correct to assume the same about Canada. The section is called “The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms” and it guarantees roughly the same thing, as the American documents.
Therefore, please forgive me for not mentioning this truth.

I like how you covered the issues and do not mind being corrected. Needless to say that both Canada and the USA’s governing authorities have gone beyond their own authority in these mandates and therefore are making themselves the true criminals.

I personally believe that these mandates are part of an agenda for Cultural Marxism. Fortunately, many vaccinated and unvaccinated people are seeing that their rights and freedoms are being taken away. Yet, we are seeing others who seem so scared that they actually are vocal against how they believe the unvaccinated are dangerous.

For example, one person said that the unvaccinated should be rounded up and put on a deserted island somewhere. Another said that they should treat them the way they used to treat lepers. I wish I could say those attitudes were rare; but they are not.

This subject however, is dividing family members, friends and even Reformed Churches.

If I may add another element about our Constitutions. It appears that in both Canada and the USA, our governments are using them as "living documents"; rather than as the original authors meant for them to be used.

I believe an example of this, is when the Alberta (Canada) Premier about a year(?) ago was asked what he thought of vaccine mandates and vaccine passports that were rumored at the time to be something the government was thinking of doing. The Premier answered fairly quickly, something to the effect of: "They are illegal and would never fly in court.." Fast forward almost a year and Alberta is among the harshest provinces in Canada where it comes to vaccine mandates and vaccine passports. One can not even go to McDonalds without a vaccine passport.

Posted By: Pilgrim Re: NeoCalvinism - Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:41 AM
Originally Posted by Tom
This subject however, is dividing family members, friends and even Reformed Churches.
Is this something which should shock professing Christians as if it was inconsistent with the biblical faith? scratchchin I say nope it is 100% biblical. For throughout recorded biblical history God has brought such calamities, oppression, persecution, etc. upon the earth of which the Church was included. Why? so that the weak may be made strong, calling out to heaven for strength, wisdom and comfort. Such things have always been a means of purging the Church of the goats from the sheep. In our own day, the visible church is filled with false prophets, false teachers and false believers. Remember well, that judgment comes first upon the 'house of God' in every age, sometimes more or less depending upon the apostasy it bears. It was so even in the life of the Apostle John was it not? The vision given to him in the very beginning; Revelation chapters 2 and 3. The apostles Paul and Peter also wrote of error and apostasy within the Church as well and wrote of what was to come. Within families there will be dissention, disobedience, and dishonor and a falling away from the truth. Worldliness and the things of this world will be among them and this is to be observed in every generation. The call to those who have been given new life in the Lord Christ is ENDURE to the end, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith, Heb 12:2; Jude 1:21.
Posted By: Tom Re: NeoCalvinism - Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:37 PM

I did not say that because it surprises me; it doesn't. Wisdom is definitely needed before one opens ones mouth.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: NeoCalvinism - Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:02 PM
Originally Posted by Tom

I did not say that because it surprises me; it doesn't. Wisdom is definitely needed before one opens ones mouth.
And wisdom is needed to discern the spiritual state of the ones to whom we might speak. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Anthony C. Re: NeoCalvinism - Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:50 PM
Don’t let anyone tell you what we, as Christians, are obligated to do. We alone are responsible for our decisions. Nobody can discern for us. Even our own pastors are not infallible on all matters. I’m not saying this to evoke a rebellious spirit but to prepare you that there are assuredly many who we will look toward for wisdom who will fail us. Anything coercive, especially putting/injecting a foreign, experimental substance into our own body, should be scrutinized to the fullest…..

See the Techno-Fascism that lurks behind Covid …..It is not of God.

Someone like Pilgrim has a good track record on these matters so he is trustworthy. I don’t trust Al Mohler, for example. I kicked myself off Puritanboard cause the cognitive dissonance with Covid was too much.
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: NeoCalvinism - Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:54 AM
Thanks for the vote of confidence. blush That video really shows how much the government has control over some of the most important aspects of your life. The need to present some form of identification/verification is oppressive.... HOWEVER it also demonstrates the rank hypocrisy of the Left which vehemently opposes the necessity of a voter ID because that would eliminate a significant percentage of their voters, e.g., dead people, illegal aliens, non-existent people, ineligible voters and multiple votes by one individual. evilgrin
Posted By: Tom Re: NeoCalvinism - Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:32 PM

Very interesting video and one that on the surface without all the obvious signs of government control, might sound very convenient.

I used to be a big fan of Albert Mohler; and although I still enjoy on occasion his broadcast called 'The Briefing'. I do have a lot of concern about how he advises people to handle issues like Covid. I believe very strongly that everyone should make their own choices based on the information available to them, as to whether or not they want to get vaccinated or not.
To me, it really is not as much about getting vaccinated or not. It has more to do with trust.

The government and their health officials have proved time and time again, that they should not be trusted.
They will tell you that the vaccines are perfectly safe and it is extremely rare to have a bad reaction.

They ignore the fact that literally millions are having serious reactions, even death after they have been vaccinated.
A friend of mine has some friends who he is (or at least was) pro-vaccine. The wife however, because of her research has not been vaccinated.
After he received his first vaccination he did not have a reaction. Yet after his second vaccination, he started having severe pain and other complications to the vaccine. When he went to his doctor, he was told in no uncertain terms that he should just stop watching all the bad information on social media.
In other words, his doctor blew him off.

I have heard many such stories, including what happens to caring doctors who do not tow the line.
Not to mention the fact that there are drugs such as Ivermectin that have proved to be very effective in the prevention and treatment of Covid-19; which are no longer allowed to be used. When you mention Ivermectin to a lot of people; they laugh at you and mock you saying we are idiots to want to use "horse de-wormer".

Another issue that should raise red flags to any caring person, is the fact they are rolling out the vaccines to children 5-12 years of age. An age group, that if they get Covid, will only have minor flu like symptoms. They are more likely to die of the vaccine, than die of Covid-19. Which is proving true in teenagers, especially boys, sigh...
This might sound bad, but if I still had young children and they were trying to make them get vaccinated. They would do so against my cold dead body!

There are a lot of people that should know better, that refuse to believe our health officials should not be trusted. They dismiss information as untrustworthy, if they do not jive with the information our health officials are pushing. This includes doctors and scientists on the front lines against Covid-19, who warn against the vaccines.

Tell me why, we should trust them?

Posted By: Anthony C. Re: NeoCalvinism - Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:48 PM
Yes, great points. My personal care physician just got out of medicine all together…. Crazy times.
I’m sure you’re aware of this as well….. (There’s too much to just ignore)….

Posted By: Pilgrim Re: NeoCalvinism - Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:50 AM
Some, of whom I am one, simply refuse to submit to getting the vaccine because there is less risk involved in contracting COVid, and the resulting immunity is far better than that of the vaccine(s). Then, there are the reports which I cannot verify yet that some of the R&D done to develop one, more or all of the vaccines have utilized parts of aborted babies. That definitely is a disgusting reason to avoid them for me. And of course, there is the illegality of government over-stepping its authority and demanding that all citizens get the vaccine under penalty of law. Sorry, but I ain't bowing the knee to 'Caesar' on this one. nope
Posted By: Tom Re: NeoCalvinism - Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:53 PM
Concerning aborted baby parts being used in the vaccines.
I have researched that issue.
However, depending on who you listen/read to, you get different information on that.
I am not just talking about secular people on that issue either.
Many Christian professionals also have different takes on that as well.

I think this might be deliberate, not necessary because the Christian professionals who say there
is nothing to reports of aborted babies used in the vaccines are lying.
Rather, it could mean where they get the information themselves have pulled the wool
over their eyes.
But then again; what do I know?

As I indicated before, I have not been vaccinated either.
There are conflicting reports however, that indicate that the elderly with health issues such as COPD
would be advised to get vaccinated.
Scientists who are saying the vaccines are being used improperly are reporting this about the elderly.
They seem to think that because of the risk there is greater in them, than it is getting vaccinated, the elderly
with health concerns should consider getting vaccinated.
I do not know enough about that issue.
However, if they were allowing drugs such as Ivermectin, I doubt that would be an issue.

Posted By: Pilgrim Re: NeoCalvinism - Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:53 AM
1. The moniker "Christian" especially in our day has little to no real meaning to me. It can have endless meanings which have absolutely nothing to do with what the Bible defines as a Christian. So, someone who identifies (another bastardized word) themselves as a 'christian'.. scientist, doctor, politician, plumber, etc., etc, immediately makes me skeptical; being a Calvinist.

2. The video that Anthony provided does pique my interest, however, since it alleges to be a Project Veritas production. Of course, its verity only rests upon a) Veritas Project is the actual source, b) Veritas did a thorough investigation, c) the 'whistleblower' is genuine and her evidence is verifiable. IF what is seen on the video is actually true, then it makes no difference whatsoever what anyone else thinks, regardless who they are.

3. There are some medicines that are quite effective of treating infected individuals which are dismissed by the Left and the 'sheep' who have partaken of the Kool-aid.

4. A VERY small minority of the population are at serious risk of dying from COVid and its variants which are myriad in number. They probably could benefit from taking the vaccine, but they are also at risk from the vaccine itself due to their particular underlying condition. But the OVERWHELMING majority of people are not at risk of dying from contracting this disease. IF I remember correctly, the percentage of those dying is c. .0001%. More people die from household accidents, car crashes, drugs, alcohol consumption and other things which people rarely think about.

5. This entire COVid fiasco has become a religion as has manmade Climate Change. It's the way of the world and its God-less corruption thinking which is and always has been existent and which will influence the majority of people in this world. One must be fervent in prayer that the Spirit working out the Father's will and providence will keep Christ's people from being deceived and give them strength to endure the persecution which accompanies their rejection of all falsehood.

Mark 13:5-23 (ASV) 5 And Jesus began to say unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray. 6 Many shall come in my name, saying, I am [he]; and shall lead many astray. 7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be not troubled: [these things] must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet. 8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be earthquakes in divers places; there shall be famines: these things are the beginning of travail. 9 But take ye heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in synagogues shall ye be beaten; and before governors and kings shall ye stand for my sake, for a testimony unto them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached unto all the nations. 11 And when they lead you [to judgment], and deliver you up, be not anxious beforehand what ye shall speak: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12 And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child; and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. 14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains: 15 and let him that is on the housetop not go down, nor enter in, to take anything out his house: 16 and let him that is in the field not return back to take his cloak. 17 But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that it be not in the winter. 19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be. 20 And except the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh would have been saved; but for the elect's sake, whom he chose, he shortened the days. 21 And then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ; or, Lo, there; believe [it] not: 22 for there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show signs and wonders, that they may lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23 But take ye heed: behold, I have told you all things beforehand.
Posted By: Tom Re: NeoCalvinism - Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:01 AM
I can’t add anything to that!
Thank you!
Posted By: Anthony C. Re: NeoCalvinism - Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:15 PM
Interesting read. A diverse amount of skepticism even in the secular realm….

“Jean-Pierre Joseph, a 74-year-old lawyer in Grenoble, said he has never been vaccinated, based on the recommendation of his grandfather, who was a doctor. “My grandfather told my mother that it’s a lie,” he said.

Mr. Joseph has represented clients who have sued the government over previous vaccination campaigns, such as a much-criticized effort to fight the swine flu epidemic in 2009. This time, Mr. Joseph has been lobbying those in his family and at work not to take the Pfizer vaccine. “Many people are afraid because they know it’s not a normal vaccine.”
Posted By: Anthony C. Re: NeoCalvinism - Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:34 PM
The case for natural immunity and red states / non-vaxxed majority countries is so great that even a God hater (we should pray for him) like Bill Maher can see it…..
Posted By: Anthony C. Re: NeoCalvinism and major detour, lol - Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:53 PM
….”Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States”

The anti-lockdown, anti-mask, Covid skeptics have data, common sense and Godly reason on their side, period. I won’t even debate it.

My 2cents on Covid tests….
Posted By: Tom Re: NeoCalvinism - Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:49 AM

Thanks for the link.
One of the issues that I find very strange and is one of the reasons I chose not to be vaccinated for Covid-19, is the fact that in my research especially in Canada. I noticed Canada usually takes longer than many countries to approve medicines. In this case, for example vaccines take a minimum of 3+ years and usually much longer of rigorous testing. Then even after they are used on the public. If a certain amount of harm comes because of the medicine, they are discontinued.

Many years ago I knew a lady in the Church we attended, who had aggressive Cancer. She lived about 20 years with it, before it eventually claimed her life. Many say the only reason she lived that long is because in Canada and the USA, the medicines she researched that might cure her, were not allowed. For that reason every year, she went to Mexico for treatment. In her case, this was understandable, because she had nothing to lose by taking medicines that were not approved in Canada.

Not only were these Covid-19 vaccines rolled out in about 18 months; the harm done by the vaccines have far surpassed previous standards in terms of harm (even by their own stats). Many front line scientists and physicians have spoken out about these facts. However they are being ignored, or worse.

Many times I have tried to speak to people, both Christian and non-Christian and I believe the majority of the time; I am either mocked, or ignored. It appears that many of them do so because
they would rather believe the government and health care officials, wouldn't harm their citizens. Some may not like the mandates and may even mention this point. However, by and large they believe the health officials are acting for the good of the citizens. Any conflicting information to what health official peddle, is considered "conspiracy" and therefore should be rejected.

I was in a discussion with a family member and showed her something a front line doctor was saying against the vaccines. Adding that many people are completely ignoring him and other doctors.
The response I received back was: "They should be ignored, it is obvious they don't care about people." Believe me, I had to bite my tongue, because I knew at the time if I had opened my mouth, I may have ruined a relationship.

As I mentioned they may not agree with the mandates; but they believe under the circumstances the unvaccinated are forcing them to do what they need to do.
After all as one person put it: "The sooner everyone is vaccinated, the sooner we we will be out of this mess."
Asked if they would be willing to take booster shots on average of twice a year? They respond with something like: "I will cross that bridge when it comes."
Posted By: Pilgrim Re: NeoCalvinism - Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:36 AM
Originally Posted by Tom
As I mentioned they may not agree with the mandates; but they believe under the circumstances the unvaccinated are forcing them to do what they need to do.
The FACT is, the vaccines are not nearly as effective as claimed. The countries where 75%-90% of the people are vaccinated have the highest number of infections. It is factually totally false that the blame rests upon the unvaccinated. And hospitalizations and deaths occur more with vaccinated than unvaccinated because those who have contracted COVID have a much more effective immunity than the vaccines provide, which is now found to be around 30%.

Again... stop whining about all the people who reject the truth and choose to believe the lies of the politicians, media and big corporations who are making enormous sums of money, and gaining more and more control of the ignorant 'sheep'. You worry far too much about being accepted by relatives and so-called friends. But what has light to do with darkness? They are of the world.. And you profess to have been called out of this world and delivered from all the philosophies and ways of the world. Persecution is what follows all who strive to live a holy life in Christ Jesus and find truth in the Bible.

Amos 3:3 (ASV) "Shall two walk together, except they have agreed?"

Matthew 10:32-40 (ASV) 32 Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven. 34 Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law: 36 and a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. 40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Posted By: Anthony C. Re: NeoCalvinism - Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:02 PM
You have a good head about all this. I’m frustrated just hearing the reactions you are getting. But understand, nobody wants to believe the capacity for evil that men, even and especially men in high places, are capable of. Only God can humble, enlighten and comfort us. I tend to agree with pilgrim. And those who are vaxxed are probably going to stand by their choice.
Posted By: Tom Re: NeoCalvinism - Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:35 AM

I gave you that information, not to whine about how they were reacting to me. I was giving it as information about what is happening.

Yet, what you said is a good reminder not to start feeling sorry for myself. There is a very easy tendency that we can all fall prey to; is to take our eyes off of Christ and think somehow we can get through this in our own strength.

That is not only arrogant , but the consequences lead to self-pity. So that is the way I took you, rather than get defensive I am going to take it as a good reminder. I will say however, as fellow believers, we really need each other.

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us." (Romans 9:35-37 KJV)

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