The Highway

Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyper...?

Posted By: AC.

Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyper...? - Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:40 PM

Are any of these TRUE MARKS of HyperCalvinsim???


HYPER-CALVINSIM:

* Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear

* Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner

* Denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal)

* Denies that there is such a thing as "common grace"

* Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect

* Denies open communion table (Promotes Closed Communion Table)
Posted By: missionaryman

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyper...? - Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:31 PM

This is an interesting subject, AC, and one that I have come across often in many years of ministry. I recently wrote an article titled "Hyper-Calvinist" in which I addressed some of these questions. I don't know if the "Head Honcho" felt it was worthy of inclusion on The Highway as he has some of my writings.I sent it out a couple of months ago to my mail list, and plan to put it on my blog after November 1st. My blog is http://cyberwordoftruth.blogspot.com .

The reason I do not go ahead and put it there today is that I already have an excellent study there in the top spot called "The Truth About Halloween" by our Pastor Emeritus, and I do not want to detract from it until after Halloween.

I will say that I believe all the points you mention are indicative of Hyperism, with possible exception of the free offer. I know some who don't like that term, preferring to call it "a declaration" or "a command", yet they do declare the gospel to all they possibly can and believe the word to be, in the Spirit's hands,the instrument of salvation. I actually like those terms better myself, but am not afraid to call it an offer.

I know that Erroll Hulse in England wrote an excellent booklet on "The Free Offer". No one should doubt that we have the oblgation, i.e., the duty, to declare the gospel to all. Hyper-Calvinists are often antinomian and do not like "duty", "law", or "command". Let me know what you think about the article.
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyper...? - Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:46 AM

What exactly does the term antinomian mean?


I have heard Hyper-Calvinsim thrown around a great deal.... we have Arminian-types calling Calvinists hypers, we got moderates calling strict Calvinists hypers, etc., etc.

You got your Pipers, your Philpots, and everyting in between.

SOme Calvinists find Calvin to be too liberal in some areas and too legalistic in others.

I even heard people call Spurgeon a hyper-Calvinist???

Graceman,

I think I'm with you regarding the free offer.

Personally, I look at Ephesians 1 and I don't see Paul making a distinction between true believers and pretenders, rather he speaks in general terms to them as predestined according to the purpose....

I find myself getting into ruts sometimes where I think Calvinism - like all other Belief-Systems - over-simplifies the Word. I do believe the Word of God reflects both the duty and the free offer above election & predestination and even over depravity (although these are all necessary concepts if we are to have a full understanding of the whole counsel of God).

I still think Reformed is the most faithful analysis of GOd's WOrd but I get put off by all the categorizations and sub-divisions sometimes.

Sorry I'm rambling - am I making any sense???
Posted By: brandon

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:18 AM

i think you should just remember that the purpose of any categorizations or sub-divisions should simply be to better and more fully understand who God is. the purpose is edification... if its just being used to divide people for no other reason then steer clear of the discussion

these articles may provide some insight... i haven't had time to read them in entirety yet, but you may appreciate the links none the less

http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=166

"As Spurgeon himself has lamented, hyper-Calvinism is a label gummed to Calvinists like the scarlet letter, regardless of whether they actually were or not. This misrepresentation is to a large extent due to an ignorance of what hyper-Calvinism actually means. What is hyper-Calvinism? Gordon Clark, quoting from Donald Dunkerley’s article, “Hyper-Calvinism Today,” defines the term as follows:

”the view of Calvinism which holds that “there is no world-wide call to Christ sent out to all sinners, neither are all men bidden to take him as their Savior.” Hyper-Calvinists .†.†. maintain that Christ should be held forth or offered as Savior to those only whom God effectually calls.11

The hyper-Calvinist makes the blunder in logic that since faith is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8) and not of man’s free will (true premises), therefore, there should be no evangelism, calling, and commanding men to believe (false conclusion). The fallacy of the Arminian is that since men are indeed commanded to believe (true premise), therefore, faith cannot be a gift of God but must be from man’s free will (false conclusions). Spurgeon refuted the hyper-Calvinist and said: “They have said, ‘God has a purpose which is certain to be fulfilled, therefore, we will not budge an inch. All power is in the hands of Christ, therefore, we will sit still’; but that is not Christ’s way of reading the passage. It is, ‘All power is given unto me, therefore go ye, and do something.’†”12


A History of Hypo-Calvinism
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=161

The Banner of Truth Versus Calvinism
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=160
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:38 PM

Something else to consider,

We have those who believe true Arminians can be saved despite being so. (John Hendryx from Monergism believes this).

We have those who believe Arminians cannot be saved becasue if they were they would essentially forsake Arminianism or not be truely Arminian (Pilgrim believes this)

I tend to side with Pilgrim on this one - however, does this make us Hyper-Calvinists???

If Arminians can be saved what's all the hubub about??? Why such intense discussions?

I do agree that Roman Catholics or Arminians or Semi-Pelagians who are saved either do not really believe what they are taught, are regenerated near the end of their lives despite false convictions prior to, or will eventually forsake free-will doctrines for the truths of the Reformed gospel (without having to give up the duty of repentance and abstaining from sin and inquity - becasue the call to faith and repentance is a sincere call to all).
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyper...? - Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:09 PM

Quote
graceman said:
Let me know what you think about the article.


Which article are you referring to? The Halloween one? Yes, quite good - we do not celebrate or acknowledge Halloween in my house. Were you referring to a different article?
Posted By: brandon

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:37 PM

Being saved is a gift from God in which our hearts are renewed and our eyes are opened to the truth that Christ atoned for our sins.

It seems everyone is an Arminian when they first become Christians. From our perspective it is we who make the decision. Someone only becomes a Calvinist after reading and studying the Word, working out their salvation with fear and trembling.

Just because they haven't understood how they became a Christian I don't think means they aren't one.
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:48 PM

yes, but the issue is will they remain an Arminian if saved (seems like you are saying no - that they will become Calvinists) and if we believe they won't are we hypers?
Posted By: brandon

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:05 PM

IMO, it seems like undue speculation
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:21 PM

Quote
brandon said:
IMO, it seems like undue speculation


Well if a true mark of a spiritual rebirth is that the individual rejects Aminianism

and

if the Calvinist who holds this perspective to be true is to be labeled a Hyper-Calvinist

I think it's an issue worth some consideration.
Posted By: brandon

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:12 PM

i don't think the true mark of spiritual rebirth is that the individual rejects Arminianism... the true mark of spiritual rebirth is that they recognize Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior

what I meant as undue speculation was contemplating if an Arminian is saved or not... i don't mean we shouldn't seek to properly define terms
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:37 PM

Quote
brandon said:
i don't think the true mark of spiritual rebirth is that the individual rejects Arminianism... the true mark of spiritual rebirth is that they recognize Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior



Well, that's a start - obviously if we don't recognize Jesus is who He said He is then we don't have a chance, and then if it becomes a personal relationship (which is probably what you are getting at) we are definitely talking a true mark!

You may be right that we should not speculate whether Arminians are saved or not but I guess we have to consider if there are ramifications for those who do not accept the whole counsel of GOd - which only God - can reveal, although we may be the means in which an introduction or impression is made (but we can only reap & sow while GOd gives the increase). I'm sure you agree - peace!
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:48 PM

Brandon, just remember Arminians believe they used their own positive volition to decide if they were going to accept Jesus or not. They don't believe they were so dead in tresspasses and sins that they were unable to accept & believe without GOd granting them this ability and desire via the HS...

SO we have to wonder when we are talking about Arminians if we are talking about a counterfeit work of man or a true work of God wrought in the elect.

Just becasue somebody decides to accept Jesus as their 'personal Lord and Saviour' does not mean they are truely converted.
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:08 PM

Quote
brandon said:
Being saved is a gift from God in which our hearts are renewed and our eyes are opened to the truth that Christ atoned for our sins.

It seems everyone is an Arminian when they first become Christians. From our perspective it is we who make the decision. Someone only becomes a Calvinist after reading and studying the Word, working out their salvation with fear and trembling.

Just because they haven't understood how they became a Christian I don't think means they aren't one.

The issue is inescapably whether what a person believes has any bearing upon one's salvation. If it doesn't matter, then everyone is going to be saved since everyone believes something. However, if it is as Paul writes, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power unto salvation." (Rom 1:16), then it is essential that the one who preaches/teaches knows what the Gospel of Christ is according to the Bible and that the one who hears actually hears the biblical Gospel. To the degree that either the message is distorted in its presentation or the hearer fails to hear all of the truth, then invariably there are negative consequences.

Now, it is true that God is sovereign and can and does save His elect sometimes despite of the lack of a sound Gospel or the hearing of it. But those instances are by His sovereign choice and exceptions rather than the rule.

Since we here hold that Calvinism is the most accurate representation of the teaching of biblical doctrine and the Gospel, then it only stands that all else are deficient to one degree or another. To go even further, Pelagianism, semi-Pelagianism and Arminianism are damnable heresies which have been condemned by historical counsels and all churches of the Protestant Reformation. The main reason is that they all teach synergism; salvation by works or a combination of faith + works. Thus, if a person who verbally affirms Arminianism, they deny: "Sola Gratia, Sola Fide and Solus Christus", without which no one can be saved. To put it very simply, a true Arminian relies upon his/her decision as that which saves (works) and not upon Christ alone (by grace through faith alone).

For more, see these two articles:

1) There are Only Two Religions in the World by Ernest Reisinger.
2) Do You REALLY Believe that Salvation is by Grace Alone?

In His grace,
Posted By: Peter

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:53 AM

Quote
* Denies open communion table (Promotes Closed Communion Table)


Do you mind explaining what you mean by that?
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:52 PM

Quote
Boanerges said:
Quote
* Denies open communion table (Promotes Closed Communion Table)


Do you mind explaining what you mean by that?


Yes, I could see this needing clarification -

not that we can judge the heart of another but we may be able to tell what's inside by the fruits, or the walk of the individual in relation to who should particiapte in the Lord's Supper,

this is basically what I'm getting at:




Quote

Calvin writes that discretion in admission to the table should be exercised "through the jurisdiction of the church"; the sacrament "may not be profaned by being administered indiscriminately" (Inst. 4.12.5). Therefore, great responsibility rests upon the ordained officers who must be "of sound doctrine and of holy life, not notorious in any fault which might both deprive them of authority and disgrace the ministry [1 Tim. 3:2-3; Titus 1:7-8] (4.3.12)" of the word and sacrament. For the minister "to whom its distribution has been committed, if he knowingly and willingly admits an unworthy person whom he could rightfully turn away, is as guilty of sacrilege as if he had cast the Lord's body to dogs (4.12.5)." The Heidelberg Catechism observes that if those are admitted to the table whose confession and life reveal ungodliness, then "the covenant of God would be profaned and his wrath kindled against the whole congregation (Q.A. 82)." Since the consequences of unlawful participation in the sacrament are so dire, the Genevan church order concludes that "it is necessary that those who have the power to frame regulations make it a rule that they who come to this communion be approved members of Christ (50)."

Approved members of Christ are those whose confession and life show that they belong to him, that they "participate in his body and blood" in faith. Christ instituted the supper only for his believers, to confirm the faith of those who by grace have been saved through hearing his Word. Since the sacrament is the "word made visible", it reinforces the gospel. Therefore, unlike the sacrament of baptism, which may be administered to those who do not understand, God "does not similarly hold forth the Supper for all to partake of, but only for those who are capable of discerning the body and blood of the Lord, of examining their own conscience, of proclaiming the Lord's death, and of considering its power (Inst. 4.16.30)." Since faith is a prerequisite for admission to the table, he whose confession and conduct reveal that he is unbelieving "should for a time be deprived of the communion of the supper until he gives assurance of his repentance (Inst. 4.12.6)." Martin Bucer, the main author of the church order of Cologne, notes that the Lord Jesus "celebrated the supper only with the twelve and only after he had preached so much; He did it only once, for which reason we assume that the Lord's supper should only be celebrated by those who submit entirely to Christ, confirm to have a thorough knowledge of the evangelical doctrine, fully believe this, and do not publicly prove the reverse."(4) Since only approved members of Christ may approach the table of the Lord, the ordinances of Geneva (1541) state that on the Sunday preceding the celebration, announcement should be made that those who are strangers or new-comers "may be exhorted first to come and present themselves at the church, so that they be instructed and thus none approach to his own condemnation."(5) In short, "no one is to be received at the supper unless he first have made confession of his faith."(6)

"It is not the office of each individual to judge and discriminate, in order to admit or reject as seems good to him; for this prerogative belongs generally to the church, or better, to the pastor with the elder whom he ought to have for assistance in the government of the church."

from Calvin's Short Treatise on the Holy Supper




http://spindleworks.com/library/rfaber/calvin_supper.htm
Posted By: lookn4ward2heavn

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:28 PM

Quote
AC. said:
Are any of these TRUE MARKS of HyperCalvinsim???

It seems to me that the term "hyperCalvinism" is a misnomer. The fact that all Calvinists believe in "Unconditional Election", regardless of whether or not they hold to the rest of the "4 points", makes them all "hyper".
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:45 PM

Quote
lookn4ward2heavn said:
Quote
AC. said:
Are any of these TRUE MARKS of HyperCalvinsim???

It seems to me that the term "hyperCalvinism" is a misnomer. The fact that all Calvinists believe in "Unconditional Election", regardless of whether or not they hold to the rest of the "4 points", makes them all "hyper".

Personally, I would only categorize somebody Hyper-Calvinistic if they believed the Good News should not be preached & shared becasue it is all determined. Determinism, if you will.
Posted By: lookn4ward2heavn

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:49 PM

Quote
AC. said:Personally, I would only categorize somebody Hyper-Calvinistic if they believed the Good News should not be preached & shared because it is all determined. Determinism, if you will.


Are not all Calvinists are "deterministic" on the basis of "unconditional election"? Whether or not a Calvinist believes the Gospel should be preached or not is irrelevant since each is believed on the basis of a divine determinism, specifically, "unconditional election".
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:10 PM

It is the duty of all Christians to witness and it is the duty of all men to come to faith and repentance.

Our deficiencies which have been inherited from Adam and are our own does not absolve us from our duties - since God's hidden will is not revealed the command is open to all and will be made effectual to some but it does not negate our duties and responsiblities (the idea that it does must be labeled HYPER-CALVINSIM)
Posted By: lookn4ward2heavn

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:26 PM

1. I agree, all Christians are under obligation to be a witness for Christ. However, does a Christian witness on the basis of God's influences to witness (which can be refused) or on the basis of a divine predetermination to witness, which he will not refuse because he cannot, seeing a submissive disposition to obedience was also predetermined?

2. Why is the call for men to repent "effectual to some" and not to all who hear it?

3. By the way, where does the Bible affirm this concept of God having a "hidden" will with reference to the salvation of men? What is that "hidden will". If hidden, how do you know there is such a will in God the first place?

Please understand, these questions are not given to affirm or deny Calvinism per se. I think the answers to these questions may show that all who believe in Calvinism are "hyper" (if it be insisted that only some are to be designated as such) because they all agree to the concept of "unconditional election", regardless of whatever other doctrinal disagreements they may have.
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:47 PM

Quote
lookn4ward2heavn said:

Please understand, these questions are not given to affirm or deny Calvinism per se. I think the answers to these questions may show that all who believe in Calvinism are "hyper" (if it be insisted that only some are to be designated as such) because they all agree to the concept of "unconditional election", regardless of whatever other doctrinal disagreements they may have.


Ok, I see where you are coming from. With all do respect, I have my own concerns that need addressing. I don't have the time or energy to educate you about Reformed Theology.

Although you did confirm one of my suspicions and that is that many non-Calvinists consider Calvinists 'Hypers.'

I'm sure there are many others who will be willing to help you understand/clarify where we are coming from or you can just check out the Highway Home Page.

God Bless,

AC
Posted By: lookn4ward2heavn

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:36 PM

Thanks for the info and sorry to have taken up your time.

However, for clarification, I did not say I considered all Calvinists as "hyper"; I did say it was a misnomer. My point was that if someone choose to make such a distinction, that some were "hyper" while others were not, it would be unjustified based on the premise that all Calvinists adhere to "unconditional election".

Personally, I consider all Calvinists as...Calvinists (therefore, you can't rightfully use me as one who confirms one of your "suspicions").
Posted By: William

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyper...? - Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:51 PM

Quote


HYPER-CALVINSIM:

* Denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal)

* Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect





Notice the avoidance of the word "reprobate". scared


.
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:14 PM

Quote
lookn4ward2heavn said:
2. Why is the call for men to repent "effectual to some" and not to all who hear it?

It is effectual to some because only those who have been regenerated (given a new nature/predisposition toward God) are capable of hearing and repenting. See here:

- Calling and Repentance, by Abraham Kuyper
- Efficacious Grace, by Loraine Boettner
- The Call that Brings a Response, by Errol Hulse

Quote
lookn4ward2heavn asked:
3. By the way, where does the Bible affirm this concept of God having a "hidden" will with reference to the salvation of men? What is that "hidden will". If hidden, how do you know there is such a will in God the first place?

"Hidden will" is a misnomer in that all of what God has willed has not been revealed but there are many things which He has revealed about His will, e.g., the entire Bible. It is indisputable that God has decreed (willed) that some of Adam's fallen race have been chosen in Christ unto salvation from eternity and some passed by and left in their sins. But who those chosen to salvation are is not revealed, i.e., the actual names of individuals has not been set forth. Thus it can rightly be said that such information is "hidden". (cf. Acts 13:48; 18:19, 20; et al)

Quote
lookn4ward2heavn said:
Please understand, these questions are not given to affirm or deny Calvinism per se. I think the answers to these questions may show that all who believe in Calvinism are "hyper" (if it be insisted that only some are to be designated as such) because they all agree to the concept of "unconditional election", regardless of whatever other doctrinal disagreements they may have.

You are wanting to redefine a term which has been established for centuries, evidently due to your rejection of biblical Calvinism. Calvinists evangelize the lost due to God's unconditional election knowing that those who have been predestinated to salvation will come through the preaching of the Gospel; "the power of God unto salvation". We do not call sinners to repentance and hope that some will of their own free-will 'decide for Jesus', which is not taught in Scripture, and which they are totally incapable of doing unless God the Spirit first regenerates them and enables them to do so. We evangelize with a sure confidence that men will come to Christ according to God's eternal and sovereign will and not due to some baseless and irrational hope that dead sinners will hear and respond to the call. wink

In His grace,
Posted By: lookn4ward2heavn

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:22 PM

RE: William's response to the "HYPER-CALVINSIM" comments:

I see no need to include "reprobate"; it is assumed (at least, to me) in the term "non-elect".

As stated, adding "reprobate" does not change what it is affirmed the teachings of Calvinism deny.
Posted By: William

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:54 PM

Quote
lookn4ward2heavn said:

I see no need to include "reprobate"; it is assumed (at least, to me) in the term "non-elect".




Yes but that is not what some are trying to teach.


They maintain that the gospel call is a gracious offer on the part of God to every hearer or that the offer is God's expressed desire to save all to whom the gospel comes and this in my opinion is an election unconnected with a decree of reprobation and is not biblical.


William

.
Posted By: missionaryman

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyper...? - Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:57 AM

AC, I am glad you read the Halloween article written by our retired pastor. My Hyper-Calvinist article is on the blog, as of today.I see this forum subject is going nicely. Good! argue claphands I'll be back later. Gotta cut some z's. bigglasses
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyper...? - Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:23 AM

Quote
graceman said:
AC, I am glad you read the Halloween article written by our retired pastor. My Hyper-Calvinist article is on the blog, as of today.I see this forum subject is going nicely. Good! argue claphands I'll be back later. Gotta cut some z's. bigglasses


Good article - can't find much fault with it.

I still have concern for those 'Christians' who do not accept the whole counsel of GOd (including the difficult doctrines of total depravity, election and predestination) but I do believe we should be loving and patient towards them!!! This goes beyond Calvinsim vs Arminianism or Augustianism vs Semi-Pelagism or any ism - we are talking the Word of GOd and the truths that lie therein. We need to weed out the heresies and accept even the most difficult truths that are in opposition to our carnal nature.
Posted By: lookn4ward2heavn

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:24 PM

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AC. said: I still have concern for those 'Christians' who do not accept the whole counsel of GOd (including the difficult doctrines of total depravity, election and predestination)...

1. Calvinism is not the "whole counsel of God". Calvinism the interpretation of a few men of what is believed to be the teachings of the Bible. Unfortunately, not all of what is taught is Biblical (at least, as I read the Bible).

2. Why are you concerned for those who do not accept Calvinistic teachings? Are you suggesting that those who reject Calvinism are not genuine Christians and need to be repent and be saved? Are you suggesting that those who confess Jesus as Lord but adhere to, for example, Arminian (which is not Pelagian) teachings to one degree or another are not saved?
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:02 PM

Quote
lookn4ward2heavn said:
1. Calvinism is not the "whole counsel of God". Calvinism the interpretation of a few men of what is believed to be the teachings of the Bible. Unfortunately, not all of what is taught is Biblical (at least, as I read the Bible).

2. Why are you concerned for those who do not accept Calvinistic teachings? Are you suggesting that those who reject Calvinism are not genuine Christians and need to be repent and be saved? Are you suggesting that those who confess Jesus as Lord but adhere to, for example, Arminian (which is not Pelagian) teachings to one degree or another are not saved?


I totally disagree - a true mark of conversion is that you accept all the Bible has to offer. If you decide Romans 9 conveys difficult truths that should be ignored or overlooked or that you simply disagree with the truths that lie in that chapter YOU ARE CALLING GOD A LIAR - YOU ARE SAYING GOD IS IN CONTROL OF ALL THINGS EXCEPT THE TRUE CONVERSIONS OF SINNERS - and thus you are not a true child of GOd. The offense is that serious and is heresy (to be blatantly honest with you!).

All the verses (that refer to God's decree, foreordiantion, predestination, election, etc. before the foundation of the world as well as man's total depravity resulting in his inability or desire to come to Jesus unless drawn by God) you are simply disregarding. A true child of God could never do that!

Augustine believes all this - Paul preached the whole counsel of God. Paul never said GOd loves everybody. He said you must repent, turn from your evil ways and turn to GOd for mercy and forgiveness - WHY IS IT THAT SOME RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE WHILE OTHERS DO NOT???? I'LL TELL YOU WHY BECAUSE OF OUR TOTAL DEVRAVITY/OUR EVIL HEARTS. UNLESS WE ARE CONVICTED OF HOW DEAD IN SINS AND INQUITITIES WE REALLY ARE WE WILL NEVER TRUELY TURN TO HIM, NEED HIM, PUT HIM ABOVE ALL, SACRIFICE ALL FOR HIM, ETC. ETC. SURE WE MAY ACCEPT HIM ON OUR TURNS, WE MAY MAKE A NICE CONFESSION, WE MAY PARTICIAPTE IN CHURCH GATHERINGS OR BIBLE STUDIES BUT UNLESS WE KNOW OURSELVES TO BE HELLWORTHY AND HELLBOUND AND HOPELESSLY AND HELPLESSLY OVERCOME BY SIN WE WILL HAVE NEVER TRUELY REPENTED AND SOUGHT MERCY AND FORGIVENSS, WALKED IN NEWNESS OF LIFE AND BECAME A HUMBLE SERVANT OF THE LORD.

WE NEED GOD'S SAVING GRACE!!!
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:16 PM

WHat you really need to do is understand the Attributes of God: http://www.albatrus.org/english/theology/god/solitariness%20of%20god.htm

This besides understanding man's total depravity is the key and the foundation of understanding the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD!

You must also realize that the Holy Trinity works in harmony - God elects, Jesus redeems/justifies, and the HS regenerates.
Posted By: lookn4ward2heavn

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:03 PM

Dear AC,

How the Bible reads and how Calvinism interprets them are two different things. For example, to say that one must be regenerated before he can repent is not what the Bible reveals.

Regarding your assertion, “Paul never said God loves everybody,” is ludicrous considering Paul’s request in 1 Tim 2:1-4, which can only be made by one who evinces a love for all men, saint and sinner, as an expression of God’s love and intention, that is, the salvation of all men.

The rest of your diatribe is unfortunate. It seems you think it is good preaching…

Let me preach a little: You seem to emphasize that the teachings of Calvinism concern a God who hates rather than a God who loves. I think that if one believes God only loves a few but hates the majority of mankind, he will follow that belief in practice; no one can truly love all men who believes some are hated from all eternity by God.
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:26 PM

Does God hate sin?

What about those who are born, remain and die sinful - are they reconciled to GOd?

I didn't say God hates some - I said the Bible does not say GOd loves everyone. Does He take pleasue in the damning of the reprobate, no. But God has allowed sin to enter the world, it serves His purpose and those who remain hardened in their sin and inquitites will get their just desserts. This is why the experienital preaching of total depravity (which is most effectively featured in Reformed theology) is so essential to our spiritual conception and growth.

God is a righteous judge - and those who remain in sin will be punished.

To repent and turn to God is a command not a recommendation.

You do not see the severity of sin - that's a problem. Many 'christians' sugar-coat the danger we are in if we remain in our natural condition - that is why many are on the broad way to destruction rather than the narrow way to eternal life.
Posted By: Adopted

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:27 PM

Quote

Lookn4 said:
Are you suggesting that those who confess Jesus as Lord but adhere to, for example, Arminian (which is not Pelagian) teachings to one degree or another are not saved?


You are not confessing Jesus as Lord if you believe you are able to buy His mercy with your arrogant "free will". Arminianism is not Pelagian as you say but semi-Pelagian which is a much more damnable heresy. Arminianism is a diabolically crafted subtle and insidious anti-christian lie. This is proven beyond doubt by its millions of deceived adherents in this country alone, including yourself.

Quote

"... and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, 'If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.' It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that He is 'Alpha and Omega' in the salvation of men." (Charles H. Spurgeon from the sermon 'Free Will A Slave' (1855)


Denny

Romans 3:22-24
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:34 PM

You also must remeber GOd has a revealed will and a hidden will - He is in control of everything. You have to consider the whole picture. God does desire the salvation of 'all men' - Jews, Gentiles, etc. He has not decreed the salvation of all men. This is where grace comes in which enables the pardoning and salvation of some men.

SOme men don't even hear the Gospel or know Jesus on an intellectual level, let alone hear the Gospel and are truely regenerate.
Posted By: jaf

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:25 PM

Dear Lookn4,

I have heard some say that Reformed Theology versus Arminian Theology is a legitimate on-going debate within the Church. I have also heard some say that both of these systems of belief fall within the pale of orthodoxy. If we look carefully and with much prayer at these two systems it will become clear that they are diametrically opposed to each other. The one stating that all facets of Salvation from the alpha to the omega are of the Lord and for His Glory. The other stating that Salvation is a joint venture and unless man can do his part God is powerless to save. Now, knowing that God has a clear intent to have His Word understood in a certain way then the law of non-contradiction must be applied. Both systems could be wrong but only ONE can be right. Logic would dictate that someone in this debate has bought into a system of heresy. When I look at Church history and those men that God raised up to accomplish great things in His name, I am struck by the disproportionate number of those who believed and taught the Doctrines of Grace. It's no coincidence, but clearly the hand of God making certain His Truth prevails in His people through the ages. Praise God for His Providence throughout history. We are told to flee the appearance of evil and to believe that man contributes anything to Salvation is the appearance of evil. Jon
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:37 PM

Look,

The heart of the gospel is God saves sinners - if you feel and know yourself to be a sinner you can call upon the Lord becasue all those who labor and are heavy laden can call upon the Lord and He will give you rest.

As for election & predestination that is secondary - however, as you grow spiritually you will come to accept these truths (if you hadn't already) as well. I believe to exeperience our total depravity is a true mark that accompanies regeneration while the acceptance of the doctrines of election and predestination may not be very apparent during the initital stages of the new birth but will most probably be made conscious at some point in the life of the true believer!
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:15 PM

And again we must consider why one truely believes and the other does not.

Let me tell you a story about John the Satanist, Don the Pseudo-christian, and James the True Believer.

John grew up a son of Pagan parents. Lived a selfish life. Experiemented with drugs, bi-sexuality and embraced the occult. He was never exposed to Biblical Christianity. He heard the name Jesus but was never interested in the Bible or Christianity in general and was ingorant of the truths that lied therein. He lived and died a secular-humanist-satanist type and embraced gross & outward sin & inquity throughout his life.

Then you have Don the pseudo-christian. He lived a good life. He gave to the poor, he participated in youth-groups, he embraced CCM and went to praise and worship concerts. He was a follower of Benny Hinn. He spread the message to everyone wherever he went that God Loves You! He didn't care that nobody responded to his message and were typically annoyed with him. Bascially Don embraced a whole christian-culture. The only problem is Don never felt himself to be a sinner. He never felt lost. He liked the feel-good preaching and message that runs rampant today and the whole culture associated with this particular brand of feel-good christianty but he never felt himself to be a hellworthy sinner and never truely repented for the sins and inquities that lied in his heart. He had bosom sins, secret sins that he continued to embrace throughout his life but he kept them hidden and never felt a need to flea from them and toward GOd that he may be released from the bondage of these sins and the evil and corruption that lied in his heart.

Lastly, we have James. James was pretty much your average guy. He never really had much time or interest in Christinaity even though his parents were stict Roman Catholics. He went to church once in a while, mostly on Holidays. He went to CCD growing up. He would even pray for his favorite football team to win every Sunday, which is how he spent most of his Sundays (watching the games with his friends). AS he got older he spent much of his time engaged in secular pursuits, going to the bars/happy hours after work and on weekends and he would frequent strip clubs on a regular basis. It wasn't until he had a nervous breakdown, that his world began to fall apart. He lost his job, was overcome with anxiety and depression and no longer took pleasure in the things he had before. TO make a long story short one of his friends was a Reformed Christian - this was a friend that James had not had much use for in the past but when times got tough he started to read the Bible and found a small amount of light thru all the bleakness he was experiencing - he called his Reformed CHristian friend and opened up to him. He started to ask many spiritual questions and eventually went to church with this person. He met the minister who not only gave him Christian counsel but also struggled with the same type of psychological difficulties in the past in his own life. Not only did James start to feel spiritually fullfilled but he started to feel better physically and mentally. He now spent most of his sparetime reading the Bible and having fellowship with like minded Christians. HE embraced the doctrine of total depravity and felt truely repentant for his sinful life and had a true desire for mecry, forgiveness and obedience to the Lord. He eventually meets his wife in the Chruch and remains a faithful servant until his death. James died a converted man and was thankful to God for delivering him from his former life and granting him the free and unmerited and undeserving gift of saving grace!
Posted By: lookn4ward2heavn

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:51 PM

Good day, Pilgrim,

(1) Your answer to my question (#2) is a cloud covering the true reason. The true and ultimate reason why for some the call is not effectual is because “before the foundation of the world…chosen from the whole human race…a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ…”; that in "the decree of God...some men ...(are) foreordained to everlasting death."

To those chosen, the call is effectual because they are chosen. They are made “capable of hearing and repenting” because they are chosen.

Conversely, the call is not effectual for others because they are not chosen and for that ultimate reason God does not give them the capability to hear and repent. It may true that their inability to hear and repent is due to their own sin, and it may be true that because of their own sin they are deserving of damnation, but is it is precisely and only because they are not chosen that the call to salvation is not effectual; that is the true and ultimate reason.

For all intents and purposes, any other reasons underlying proposed are moot.

(2) Acts 13:48 – Did you get all that out of this one verse? In any case, it seems the deciding factor rests on the word “ordained.” the few references I’ve read do not seem to (e.g. Robertson Word Pictures) support the way you view the text. As such, your interpretation of the text is doubtful.

For my unscholarly self, I noticed:
(a) It doesn’t read, “pre-appointed” (NJKV) or “fore-ordained” (KJV).
(b) Your application of “ordain” in interpreting the text here is not used in the same way as in the other verses where the same Greek word occurs.
(c) Those who are appointed to eternal life are those who respond in faith to the message.

What I sense being conveyed by the verse is that God appoints believers for salvation; as many as believe, even so, they are “appointed to eternal like.”

Acts 18:19-20?

(3) To say ‘biblical Calvinism” is an oxymoron and why one would evangelize is not relevant to this issue.
Posted By: lookn4ward2heavn

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:02 PM

Quote
AC. said:I didn't say God hates some...

So, you're saying God loves all, that is (in Calvinistic language), the "elect" and the "non-elect"?
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:04 PM

Look, 2 questions -

1) Why do some truely believe the Gospel and enter into a sincere and lasting state of complete repentance/conversion while others completely reject the Gospel outright, or have not been exposed to the true Gospel or any Christian Gospel message for that matter, or are simply lukewarm in their christian beliefs? Basically what I'm asking is - what makes man to differ?

2) Why did God permit sin to enter the world? Does it serve some type of purpose??? (Again please consider God's attributes!)
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:19 PM

Just reading your response to Pilgrim -

Election and Predestination DOES NOT negate our responsibility and these things are not revealed to us they are hidden - God has commanded us thru his revealed will what we must do and it includes fleaing to Jesus for mediation.

Now if you want to argue that scripture does not say what we think it says that is fine - but I think we have to clarify our foundations.

Reformed believes man is in bondage to sin to the point where we will never choose anything spiritually good. (We have scriptures to support this).

Do you believe we have any spiritual ability to do or choose anything spiritually good?

We also believe that God is in sovereign control of everything and must give man thru His spirit the ability to come to His son. (We have scriptures to support this).

Do you believe God is in sovereign control of everything? And that we can be saved without His saving grace/being Born Again/Regenerated - which is a spiritual work - the gift of God - which is produced in us via the HS! We can't regenerate ourselves. We can't make ourselves Born Again. If you answered yes to total depravity you MUST answer yes to the idea that God must work in us the ability and desire to be turned to HIM. He is calling the shots - not us!!!

The scriptures that "seem" to support your side must be considered in context and mesh with the scriptures that support are 2 main points!!!


How the heck did I get caught up in this - I just wanted to talk about hyper-Calvinsim <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/crazyeyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: lookn4ward2heavn

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:29 PM

AC,

Don't you think you should point out Scripture that warrants your view, first?
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:13 AM

Quote
lookn4ward2heavn said:
AC,

Don't you think you should point out Scripture that warrants your view, first?


Well, a good place to start is Total Depravity:

Quote

I Cor. 2:14: The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
Gen. 2:17: But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Rom. 5:12: Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned.
II Cor. 1:9: Yea, we ourselves had the sentence of death within ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raiseth the dead.
Eph. 2:1-3: And you did He make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom ye also all once lived in the lusts of your flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Eph. 2:12: Ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Jer. 13:23: Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Ps. 51:5: Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.
John 3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Rom. 3:10-12: As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one;
There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;
They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one.
Job 14:4: Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
I Cor. 1:18: For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.
Acts 13:41: Behold, ye despisers, and wonder and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you.
Prov. 30:12: There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes,
And yet are not washed from their filthiness.
John 5:21: For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom He will.
John 6:53: Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, ye have not life in yourselves.
John 8:19: They said therefore unto Him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye know neither me, nor my Father; if ye knew me, ye would know my Father also.
Matt. 11:25: I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes.
II Cor. 5:17: if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature. John 14:16: (And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,) even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth Him not, neither knoweth Him; ye know Him; for He abideth with you, and shall be in you.
John 3:19: And this is the judgment, that light is come unto the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.

Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:12 PM

We also have much scriptual support for God's Sovereignty:

(While Arminians feel there are accidents that fall outside GOd's sovereign, eternal decrees & immutability)

* Check out Section I of this book for a full explanation: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.toc.html


Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Acts 4:27, 28: For of a truth in this city against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel foreordained to come to pass.

Ephesians 1:5: Having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

Ephesians 1:11: In whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His will.

Romans 8:28: To them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to His purpose.

Daniel 4:35: He doeth according to His will In the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou?

Jeremiah 32:17: Ah Lord Jehovah! behold thou hast made the heavens and the earth by thy great power and by thine outstretched arm; and there is nothing too hard for thee.

Matthew 28:18: All authority bath been given unto me (Christ) in heaven and on earth.

Ephesians 1:22: And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church.

Ephesians 1:11: In whom we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His will.

Isaiah 14:24, 27: Jehovah of hosts hath sworn, saying, surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass . . . . For Jehovah of hosts hath purposed, and who shall annul it? and His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

Isaiah 46:9, 10, 11: Remember the former things of old; for I am God. and there is none else; I am God and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure . . . . yea, I have spoken; I will also bring It to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it.

Genesis 18:14: Is anything too hard for Jehovah?

Job 42:2: I know that thou canst do all things, And that no purpose of thine can be restrained.

Psalm 115:3: Our God is in the heavens. He hath done whatsoever He pleased.

Psalm 135:6: Whatsoever Jehovah pleased, that hath He done. In heaven, in earth, in the seas, and in all deeps.

Isaiah 55:11: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth; it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Romans 9:20, 21: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?



Romans 8:29, 30: For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom He foreordained, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

1 Corinthians 2:7: But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory.

Acts 2:23: Him (Jesus) being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hands of lawless men did crucify and slay.

Acts 13:48: And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Ephesians 2:10: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Romans 9:23: That He might make known the riches of His glory upon the vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory.

Psalm 139:16: Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.

Genesis 50:20: As for you, ye meant evil against me (Joseph), but God meant it for good.

Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I am Jehovah that doeth all these things.

Amos 3:6: Shall evil befall a city and Jehovah hath not done it?

Acts 3:18: The things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, He thus fulfilled.

Matthew 21:42: The stone which the builders rejected, the same was made the head of the corner.
Posted By: John_C

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:55 PM

Regeneration comes from the passage in John 3 - "you must be born again". The passage says we are reborn by the Holy Spirit.
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:29 PM

Quote
lookn4ward2heavn said:
Conversely, the call is not effectual for others because they are not chosen and for that ultimate reason God does not give them the capability to hear and repent. It may true that their inability to hear and repent is due to their own sin, and it may be true that because of their own sin they are deserving of damnation, but is it is precisely and only because they are not chosen that the call to salvation is not effectual; that is the true and ultimate reason.

To assert that the ultimate cause of one's damnation due to their rejection of the Gospel is God's you then make God the "Author of sin" as well as relieve all responsibility from the individual. God chose to NOT save the majority of Adam's fallen race, which decision is just. If God were obligated to save anyone, then it would not be of grace. It was God's design to appoint Adam as the Federal Head of the human race and to establish corporate solidarity. Due to Adam's transgression the entire human race was punished (made sinners). The penalty of Adam's transgression was two-fold: 1) ALL would have Adam's guilt imputed to them and 2) ALL would be born like unto Adam, i.e., with a corrupt nature. Thus by virtue of being human, ALL are under the just condemnation of God.

Now, if you choose to reject the biblical teaching of "imputation", you of necessity eliminate the work of Christ and the salvation merited by Him. For, it is by the "imputation" of righteousness that sinners are reconciled with God. This truth is indisputably set forth in Rom 5:12-18 and I Cor 15:21, 22. What you are left with is some form of synergism and the atonement reduces to nothing more than an example, e.g., Finney ended up with his bankrupt Governmental Theory of the atonement which provides no actual salvation at all.

For all intents and purposes, any other reasons underlying proposed are moot.

Quote
lookn4ward2heavn said:
(2) Acts 13:48 – Did you get all that out of this one verse? In any case, it seems the deciding factor rests on the word “ordained.” the few references I’ve read do not seem to (e.g. Robertson Word Pictures) support the way you view the text. As such, your interpretation of the text is doubtful.

For my unscholarly self, I noticed:
(a) It doesn’t read, “pre-appointed” (NJKV) or “fore-ordained” (KJV).
(b) Your application of “ordain” in interpreting the text here is not used in the same way as in the other verses where the same Greek word occurs.
(c) Those who are appointed to eternal life are those who respond in faith to the message.

What I sense being conveyed by the verse is that God appoints believers for salvation; as many as believe, even so, they are “appointed to eternal like.”

Robertson's Word Pictures is not a Greek Lexicon but a commentary, if that. Thus it has no salient use to the discussion. If you would consult a recognized Greek Lexicon you would see that the word does indeed mean "to appoint", etc.


tas'-so

a prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot):--addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.


Personally, I have far more trust in my understanding of Koine Greek that yours. Thus the text does say, "as many as were appointed, ordained, determined (to salvation; understood) believed. The proximate cause of their believe was their being ordained to do so. (cf. Eph 1:4-11) You are deliberately ignoring the grammatical order and reversing what the text actually says; "those who believed were ordained" rather than "those who were ordained, believed". To be "ordained to eternal life" is the same as being ordained to be united with Christ by faith, salvation, et al, since eternal life only belongs to those who believe on Christ. And those who believe on Christ only do so IF God the Spirit sovereignly enlivens them; aka: born from above, born again, made alive, etc.

In His grace,
Posted By: Adopted

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:21 PM

Quote

Lookn4 said:
Let me preach a little: You seem to emphasize that the teachings of Calvinism concern a God who hates rather than a God who loves. I think that if one believes God only loves a few but hates the majority of mankind, he will follow that belief in practice; no one can truly love all men who believes some are hated from all eternity by God.


As if you haven't been preaching Arminianism all along.

Any decent Reformed exegesis of this text (1Tim 2:1-4) in context will show you that at base "all men" does not mean all men without exception but all men without distinction. Yes, God loves and saves even some sinful human kings!

Quote

I think that if one believes God only loves a few but hates the majority of mankind, he will follow that belief in practice;


Thanks for the pleasantry, even though we are doing our best to compassionately talk Scriptural sense to an Arminian heretic.

Quote

...as an expression of God’s love and intention, that is, the salvation of all men.


It must be horrific for you to believe that your god is so impotent and spineless that he doesn't even have the power or will to accomplish what he intends or desires.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24
Posted By: Tom

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:13 PM

You said:
Quote
I think that if one believes God only loves a few but hates the majority of mankind, he will follow that belief in practice; no one can truly love all men who believes some are hated from all eternity by God.


Really... tell that to some of the greatest evangelists this world has ever seem. George Whitefield, William Carrie, just to name a few.

Tom
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:31 AM

Quote
lookn4ward2heavn said:
Let me preach a little: You seem to emphasize that the teachings of Calvinism concern a God who hates rather than a God who loves. I think that if one believes God only loves a few but hates the majority of mankind, he will follow that belief in practice; no one can truly love all men who believes some are hated from all eternity by God.


We forfitted our rights in paradise and now we are in a spiritual bind - we are dead in tresspasses and sins and God is under no obligation to show mercy unto us - fortunately God has provided hope for ALL MANKIND. And that hope is Jesus. So God has shown love and mercy to all mankind with the giving of His son. Also, He takes no pleasue in the condemnation of the reprobate. But He is righteous and just and will punish those who are unreconciled to Him. The fact that He pardons some is His perogative.

But I can't stress enough that we ARE responsible and accountable - if we've heard the true Gospel preached we are blessed and we know we can turn to GOd. If this kind of experiential Reformed preaching and foremost the reading of the Word melts our hearts and convicts us of sin - we can be sure that God has a hand in this and will not leave us in this dead state but will lift us out of despair. We musn't fight these difficult truths but accept them. The more spiritual knowledge and insight we receive the more accountable we are but also the more hope we should have that the work started by God will not be abandoned but be fully carried out to His glory and our good!

One thing is for sure Calvinistic/Reformed theology does not make one slack or disinterested in the spiritual welfare of others - quite the contrary, there is no greater Christian zeal than that of one who realizes God is in control and that we can rely on Him for all things because He is perfect, while we perform our duties as humble servants that desire to share the whole counsel of God with the hope that others may also be convicted of their sins and truely turn to GOd for mercy and forgiveness.
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:36 PM

Quote
Adopted said:
Any decent Reformed exegesis of this text (1Tim 2:1-4) in context will show you that at base "all men" does not mean all men without exception but all men without distinction. Yes, God loves and saves even some sinful human kings!

And one of the best exegetical studies of 1 Tim 2:4 can be found here: An Exegetical Study of 1Timothy 2:4, by Dr. Gary Long.
Posted By: AC.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:49 PM

TO get back to Hyper-Calvinism I wanted to share this exchange. Over a week ago I e-mailed my friend and former-minister of my church a commentary I found on the internet regarding Hyper-Calvinsim. I included his response which I just received today -




I have a quick question, what exactly is hyper-Calvinism?

And is it fair for the likes of John Gill, William Gadsby, John Warburton, and J. C. Philpot to be labeled hyper-Calvinsits? I do realize they are all Baptists.

In my research I've encountered hyper-calvinism defined as:


Quote

* Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR
* Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR
* Denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal), OR
* Denies that there is such a thing as "common grace," OR
* Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.

"All five varieties of hyper-Calvinism undermine evangelism or twist the gospel message.

Many modern hyper-Calvinists salve themselves by thinking their view cannot really be hyper-Calvinism because, after all, they believe in proclaiming the gospel to all. However, the "gospel" they proclaim is a truncated soteriology with an undue emphasis on God's decree as it pertains to the reprobate. One hyper-Calvinist declared, "The message of the Gospel is
that God saves those who are His own and damns those who are not." Thus the good news about Christ's death and resurrection is supplanted by a message about election and
reprobation—usually with an inordinate stress on reprobation. In practical terms, the hyper-Calvinist "gospel" often reduces to the message that God simply and single-mindedly
hates those whom He has chosen to damn, and there is nothing whatsoever they can do about it.

Deliberately excluded from hyper-Calvinist "evangelism" is any pleading with the sinner to be reconciled with God. Sinners are not told that God offers them forgiveness or salvation.

In fact, most hyper-Calvinists categorically deny that God makes any offer in the gospel whatsoever.

The hyper-Calvinist position at this point amounts to a repudiation of the very gist of 2 Corinthians 5:20: "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God." The whole thrust of the gospel, properly presented, is to convey an offer (in the sense of a tender, a proffer, or a proposal) of
divine peace and mercy to all who come under its hearing. The apostle's language is even stronger, suggesting the true gospel preacher begs sinners to be reconciled to God—or
rather he stands "in Christ's stead," pleading thus with the sinner. Hyper-Calvinism in essence denies the concept of human responsibility, and so it must eliminate any such
pleading, resulting in a skewed presentation of the gospel."






You are asking a question which is not so easy to answer. It is exactly as you point out, “hyper-Calvinism” has many “definitions.” It is a term which apparently has been coined to refer to a doctrine that seems to go “beyond” Calvin’s doctrine concerning the sovereignty of God. You see in the very list of definitions you have found, that it is often an accusation by those who feel that in the preaching, the “gospel offer” is not “free” enough. In other words, they say that the minister does not “call” those who are insensible of their sin to “come to Christ” freely enough.



Let me try to explain something in order to make clear the complexity of this matter in the preaching by using a natural example. Let us suppose that you were in a room
with 10 people, all of which you know have cancer. Five of them know this, however, and five do not. What would you feel to be your responsibility? Would you tell all of
them to go to the physician? Indeed, I think I would. If you know they all are sick, you know they all need the physician, and I’m sure there is not anyone with any
compassion in their heart that would not tell them all to go to the physician. However, in a practical way, only five of them will listen to you, since the others see no need to
go. What are you going to do with the other five? Will you merely keep pleading with them to go to the physician? No, you would know very well in your own heart what you
would need to do, namely, you must begin at the beginning with them. You must endeavor to convince them that they are sick. This may not be very easy. You will have
to point out the symptoms, etc. As soon as they believe that they are indeed sick, convincing them to go to the physician is not difficult anymore.



Let me try to bring this example over, for a moment, to the preaching. I agree that the outward call goes out to the whole congregation. There is no other end that we desire
than that every person in the congregation would “go to Christ.” Certainly, they need to be told this. However, if this becomes the focus of my message to the unconverted,
my aim can never be reached. Though the call does go out to them, we must in a practical manner try to lead them there, step by step. The first and most important step
is to attempt to convince man of his misery. This he simply does not believe by nature and without truly believing this, he will never see any beauty in Christ or any reason
to “go to Him.” On the other hand, when a person is convinced of his misery, the greatest objection against “going to Christ” is taken away. At that point he often feels so sinful and unworthy that he will need to be encouraged to “go to Christ” just as he is, though he is “unworthy that He should come under his roof.” It is just for this reason that we read of those blessed invitations such as, “Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest,” and declarations such as “for the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which is lost,” or “I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”



It is remarkable to me how people sometimes harp on this subject of the “gospel offer.” If I look at all the discourses of Christ Himself in the Bible, His parables, etc., I do not find much at all of this sort of thing. Instead, I find a very strong emphasis on “distinguishing” or “separating” or “taking forth the precious from the vile.” In other words, the Lord Jesus often made distinctions between those who were truly His Own people, and those who are not. Just think of the parables, for example, of the wise and foolish virgins, the rich man and Lazarus, the seed falling into different types of grounds, the good and bad fishes, the wheat and tares, the house built upon the rock and sand, etc, etc. In other words, the Lord Jesus often warned men not to deceive themselves, lest they “think to enter in and not be able.”



In the passage you quoted, it accuses Hyper-Calvinists of “twisting the gospel message” and “supplanting the good news about Christ’s death and resurrection by a
message about election and reprobation.” If a person thinks that the doctrine of predestination is a “supplantation” of the gospel message, he has obviously never truly
come into agreement with the sovereignty of God. As soon as a person is brought to the true realization of what he deserves because of his sin, and that God is right and
just to cast him away forever, that this is what he justly deserves, election becomes his only hope. If it were not for the fact that God has elected a Church to Himself,
every person in this world would have to be condemned. Thus, election is no “supplantation” of the gospel message. These two concur in every particular. Not only is it
“good news” to such a person that God has elected a people, but He has also sent His Son into the world to seek and to save them. Oh, how this opens a way to person
who indeed views himself as such a sinner. Then there is a possibility for me also! Wonder of wonders! Is this not the way that “the poor have hope?” So it is fulfilled that
the hungry are filled with good things, and the rich are sent empty away.



There is no other comfort in life or in death. We must ask the Lord to take away all that stands in the way, namely, all that is of myself. That is nothing more than a praying against ourselves. Of ourselves we will not do it. We maintain ourselves. And if the Lord will hear our
supplication, then we may be sure it will go very much against our flesh. But it will be to the profit of our souls. This is our wish for you and yours.



It is true that the Baptist ministers you mention do not speak so directly to the unconverted, as we try to do. On the other hand, their sermons are filled with spiritual life. If people condemn such sermons, I can hardly believe that they know spiritual life themselves. How much food for the souls of God’s people is contained therein, which sadly
is greatly lacking in our days. How much an “unconverted” person has to be jealous of when he hears such preaching! Thus, it far from lacks a message to the unconverted, if we may only listen with a little attention.












Posted By: Peter

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:31 AM

Well thanks for the clarification I have to day that I don't think fencing the table can be used as a legitimate example of hyper-calvinism.
Posted By: Peter

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp - Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:01 AM

Quote
lookn4ward2heavn said:
AC,

Don't you think you should point out Scripture that warrants your view, first?


How about you exegete a passage that supports your view first. We've presented a multitude of scripture that proves our view. Your response has been "that's your opinion" or "the opinion of Calvin and a few others". What makes your opinion better than theirs? Why should we provide the burden of proof when you haven't provided any?
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