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Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp [Re: lookn4ward2heavn] #38174
Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:02 AM
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lookn4ward2heavn said:
1. Calvinism is not the "whole counsel of God". Calvinism the interpretation of a few men of what is believed to be the teachings of the Bible. Unfortunately, not all of what is taught is Biblical (at least, as I read the Bible).

2. Why are you concerned for those who do not accept Calvinistic teachings? Are you suggesting that those who reject Calvinism are not genuine Christians and need to be repent and be saved? Are you suggesting that those who confess Jesus as Lord but adhere to, for example, Arminian (which is not Pelagian) teachings to one degree or another are not saved?


I totally disagree - a true mark of conversion is that you accept all the Bible has to offer. If you decide Romans 9 conveys difficult truths that should be ignored or overlooked or that you simply disagree with the truths that lie in that chapter YOU ARE CALLING GOD A LIAR - YOU ARE SAYING GOD IS IN CONTROL OF ALL THINGS EXCEPT THE TRUE CONVERSIONS OF SINNERS - and thus you are not a true child of GOd. The offense is that serious and is heresy (to be blatantly honest with you!).

All the verses (that refer to God's decree, foreordiantion, predestination, election, etc. before the foundation of the world as well as man's total depravity resulting in his inability or desire to come to Jesus unless drawn by God) you are simply disregarding. A true child of God could never do that!

Augustine believes all this - Paul preached the whole counsel of God. Paul never said GOd loves everybody. He said you must repent, turn from your evil ways and turn to GOd for mercy and forgiveness - WHY IS IT THAT SOME RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE WHILE OTHERS DO NOT???? I'LL TELL YOU WHY BECAUSE OF OUR TOTAL DEVRAVITY/OUR EVIL HEARTS. UNLESS WE ARE CONVICTED OF HOW DEAD IN SINS AND INQUITITIES WE REALLY ARE WE WILL NEVER TRUELY TURN TO HIM, NEED HIM, PUT HIM ABOVE ALL, SACRIFICE ALL FOR HIM, ETC. ETC. SURE WE MAY ACCEPT HIM ON OUR TURNS, WE MAY MAKE A NICE CONFESSION, WE MAY PARTICIAPTE IN CHURCH GATHERINGS OR BIBLE STUDIES BUT UNLESS WE KNOW OURSELVES TO BE HELLWORTHY AND HELLBOUND AND HOPELESSLY AND HELPLESSLY OVERCOME BY SIN WE WILL HAVE NEVER TRUELY REPENTED AND SOUGHT MERCY AND FORGIVENSS, WALKED IN NEWNESS OF LIFE AND BECAME A HUMBLE SERVANT OF THE LORD.

WE NEED GOD'S SAVING GRACE!!!

Last edited by AC.; Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:36 AM.

The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp [Re: AC.] #38175
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WHat you really need to do is understand the Attributes of God: http://www.albatrus.org/english/theology/god/solitariness%20of%20god.htm

This besides understanding man's total depravity is the key and the foundation of understanding the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD!

You must also realize that the Holy Trinity works in harmony - God elects, Jesus redeems/justifies, and the HS regenerates.


The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp [Re: AC.] #38176
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Dear AC,

How the Bible reads and how Calvinism interprets them are two different things. For example, to say that one must be regenerated before he can repent is not what the Bible reveals.

Regarding your assertion, “Paul never said God loves everybody,” is ludicrous considering Paul’s request in 1 Tim 2:1-4, which can only be made by one who evinces a love for all men, saint and sinner, as an expression of God’s love and intention, that is, the salvation of all men.

The rest of your diatribe is unfortunate. It seems you think it is good preaching…

Let me preach a little: You seem to emphasize that the teachings of Calvinism concern a God who hates rather than a God who loves. I think that if one believes God only loves a few but hates the majority of mankind, he will follow that belief in practice; no one can truly love all men who believes some are hated from all eternity by God.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp [Re: lookn4ward2heavn] #38177
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Does God hate sin?

What about those who are born, remain and die sinful - are they reconciled to GOd?

I didn't say God hates some - I said the Bible does not say GOd loves everyone. Does He take pleasue in the damning of the reprobate, no. But God has allowed sin to enter the world, it serves His purpose and those who remain hardened in their sin and inquitites will get their just desserts. This is why the experienital preaching of total depravity (which is most effectively featured in Reformed theology) is so essential to our spiritual conception and growth.

God is a righteous judge - and those who remain in sin will be punished.

To repent and turn to God is a command not a recommendation.

You do not see the severity of sin - that's a problem. Many 'christians' sugar-coat the danger we are in if we remain in our natural condition - that is why many are on the broad way to destruction rather than the narrow way to eternal life.

Last edited by AC.; Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:31 PM.

The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp [Re: lookn4ward2heavn] #38178
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Lookn4 said:
Are you suggesting that those who confess Jesus as Lord but adhere to, for example, Arminian (which is not Pelagian) teachings to one degree or another are not saved?


You are not confessing Jesus as Lord if you believe you are able to buy His mercy with your arrogant "free will". Arminianism is not Pelagian as you say but semi-Pelagian which is a much more damnable heresy. Arminianism is a diabolically crafted subtle and insidious anti-christian lie. This is proven beyond doubt by its millions of deceived adherents in this country alone, including yourself.

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"... and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, 'If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.' It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that He is 'Alpha and Omega' in the salvation of men." (Charles H. Spurgeon from the sermon 'Free Will A Slave' (1855)


Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp [Re: AC.] #38179
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You also must remeber GOd has a revealed will and a hidden will - He is in control of everything. You have to consider the whole picture. God does desire the salvation of 'all men' - Jews, Gentiles, etc. He has not decreed the salvation of all men. This is where grace comes in which enables the pardoning and salvation of some men.

SOme men don't even hear the Gospel or know Jesus on an intellectual level, let alone hear the Gospel and are truely regenerate.

Last edited by AC.; Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:29 PM.
Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp [Re: lookn4ward2heavn] #38180
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Dear Lookn4,

I have heard some say that Reformed Theology versus Arminian Theology is a legitimate on-going debate within the Church. I have also heard some say that both of these systems of belief fall within the pale of orthodoxy. If we look carefully and with much prayer at these two systems it will become clear that they are diametrically opposed to each other. The one stating that all facets of Salvation from the alpha to the omega are of the Lord and for His Glory. The other stating that Salvation is a joint venture and unless man can do his part God is powerless to save. Now, knowing that God has a clear intent to have His Word understood in a certain way then the law of non-contradiction must be applied. Both systems could be wrong but only ONE can be right. Logic would dictate that someone in this debate has bought into a system of heresy. When I look at Church history and those men that God raised up to accomplish great things in His name, I am struck by the disproportionate number of those who believed and taught the Doctrines of Grace. It's no coincidence, but clearly the hand of God making certain His Truth prevails in His people through the ages. Praise God for His Providence throughout history. We are told to flee the appearance of evil and to believe that man contributes anything to Salvation is the appearance of evil. Jon

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp [Re: jaf] #38181
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Look,

The heart of the gospel is God saves sinners - if you feel and know yourself to be a sinner you can call upon the Lord becasue all those who labor and are heavy laden can call upon the Lord and He will give you rest.

As for election & predestination that is secondary - however, as you grow spiritually you will come to accept these truths (if you hadn't already) as well. I believe to exeperience our total depravity is a true mark that accompanies regeneration while the acceptance of the doctrines of election and predestination may not be very apparent during the initital stages of the new birth but will most probably be made conscious at some point in the life of the true believer!

Last edited by AC.; Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:58 PM.

The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp [Re: AC.] #38182
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And again we must consider why one truely believes and the other does not.

Let me tell you a story about John the Satanist, Don the Pseudo-christian, and James the True Believer.

John grew up a son of Pagan parents. Lived a selfish life. Experiemented with drugs, bi-sexuality and embraced the occult. He was never exposed to Biblical Christianity. He heard the name Jesus but was never interested in the Bible or Christianity in general and was ingorant of the truths that lied therein. He lived and died a secular-humanist-satanist type and embraced gross & outward sin & inquity throughout his life.

Then you have Don the pseudo-christian. He lived a good life. He gave to the poor, he participated in youth-groups, he embraced CCM and went to praise and worship concerts. He was a follower of Benny Hinn. He spread the message to everyone wherever he went that God Loves You! He didn't care that nobody responded to his message and were typically annoyed with him. Bascially Don embraced a whole christian-culture. The only problem is Don never felt himself to be a sinner. He never felt lost. He liked the feel-good preaching and message that runs rampant today and the whole culture associated with this particular brand of feel-good christianty but he never felt himself to be a hellworthy sinner and never truely repented for the sins and inquities that lied in his heart. He had bosom sins, secret sins that he continued to embrace throughout his life but he kept them hidden and never felt a need to flea from them and toward GOd that he may be released from the bondage of these sins and the evil and corruption that lied in his heart.

Lastly, we have James. James was pretty much your average guy. He never really had much time or interest in Christinaity even though his parents were stict Roman Catholics. He went to church once in a while, mostly on Holidays. He went to CCD growing up. He would even pray for his favorite football team to win every Sunday, which is how he spent most of his Sundays (watching the games with his friends). AS he got older he spent much of his time engaged in secular pursuits, going to the bars/happy hours after work and on weekends and he would frequent strip clubs on a regular basis. It wasn't until he had a nervous breakdown, that his world began to fall apart. He lost his job, was overcome with anxiety and depression and no longer took pleasure in the things he had before. TO make a long story short one of his friends was a Reformed Christian - this was a friend that James had not had much use for in the past but when times got tough he started to read the Bible and found a small amount of light thru all the bleakness he was experiencing - he called his Reformed CHristian friend and opened up to him. He started to ask many spiritual questions and eventually went to church with this person. He met the minister who not only gave him Christian counsel but also struggled with the same type of psychological difficulties in the past in his own life. Not only did James start to feel spiritually fullfilled but he started to feel better physically and mentally. He now spent most of his sparetime reading the Bible and having fellowship with like minded Christians. HE embraced the doctrine of total depravity and felt truely repentant for his sinful life and had a true desire for mecry, forgiveness and obedience to the Lord. He eventually meets his wife in the Chruch and remains a faithful servant until his death. James died a converted man and was thankful to God for delivering him from his former life and granting him the free and unmerited and undeserving gift of saving grace!


The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp [Re: Pilgrim] #38183
Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:51 PM
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Good day, Pilgrim,

(1) Your answer to my question (#2) is a cloud covering the true reason. The true and ultimate reason why for some the call is not effectual is because “before the foundation of the world…chosen from the whole human race…a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ…”; that in "the decree of God...some men ...(are) foreordained to everlasting death."

To those chosen, the call is effectual because they are chosen. They are made “capable of hearing and repenting” because they are chosen.

Conversely, the call is not effectual for others because they are not chosen and for that ultimate reason God does not give them the capability to hear and repent. It may true that their inability to hear and repent is due to their own sin, and it may be true that because of their own sin they are deserving of damnation, but is it is precisely and only because they are not chosen that the call to salvation is not effectual; that is the true and ultimate reason.

For all intents and purposes, any other reasons underlying proposed are moot.

(2) Acts 13:48 – Did you get all that out of this one verse? In any case, it seems the deciding factor rests on the word “ordained.” the few references I’ve read do not seem to (e.g. Robertson Word Pictures) support the way you view the text. As such, your interpretation of the text is doubtful.

For my unscholarly self, I noticed:
(a) It doesn’t read, “pre-appointed” (NJKV) or “fore-ordained” (KJV).
(b) Your application of “ordain” in interpreting the text here is not used in the same way as in the other verses where the same Greek word occurs.
(c) Those who are appointed to eternal life are those who respond in faith to the message.

What I sense being conveyed by the verse is that God appoints believers for salvation; as many as believe, even so, they are “appointed to eternal like.”

Acts 18:19-20?

(3) To say ‘biblical Calvinism” is an oxymoron and why one would evangelize is not relevant to this issue.

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp [Re: AC.] #38184
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AC. said:I didn't say God hates some...

So, you're saying God loves all, that is (in Calvinistic language), the "elect" and the "non-elect"?

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp [Re: lookn4ward2heavn] #38185
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Look, 2 questions -

1) Why do some truely believe the Gospel and enter into a sincere and lasting state of complete repentance/conversion while others completely reject the Gospel outright, or have not been exposed to the true Gospel or any Christian Gospel message for that matter, or are simply lukewarm in their christian beliefs? Basically what I'm asking is - what makes man to differ?

2) Why did God permit sin to enter the world? Does it serve some type of purpose??? (Again please consider God's attributes!)


The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp [Re: AC.] #38186
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Just reading your response to Pilgrim -

Election and Predestination DOES NOT negate our responsibility and these things are not revealed to us they are hidden - God has commanded us thru his revealed will what we must do and it includes fleaing to Jesus for mediation.

Now if you want to argue that scripture does not say what we think it says that is fine - but I think we have to clarify our foundations.

Reformed believes man is in bondage to sin to the point where we will never choose anything spiritually good. (We have scriptures to support this).

Do you believe we have any spiritual ability to do or choose anything spiritually good?

We also believe that God is in sovereign control of everything and must give man thru His spirit the ability to come to His son. (We have scriptures to support this).

Do you believe God is in sovereign control of everything? And that we can be saved without His saving grace/being Born Again/Regenerated - which is a spiritual work - the gift of God - which is produced in us via the HS! We can't regenerate ourselves. We can't make ourselves Born Again. If you answered yes to total depravity you MUST answer yes to the idea that God must work in us the ability and desire to be turned to HIM. He is calling the shots - not us!!!

The scriptures that "seem" to support your side must be considered in context and mesh with the scriptures that support are 2 main points!!!


How the heck did I get caught up in this - I just wanted to talk about hyper-Calvinsim <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/crazyeyes.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by AC.; Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:22 PM.

The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp [Re: AC.] #38187
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AC,

Don't you think you should point out Scripture that warrants your view, first?

Re: Does a denial of the gospel's free offer = Hyp [Re: lookn4ward2heavn] #38188
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lookn4ward2heavn said:
AC,

Don't you think you should point out Scripture that warrants your view, first?


Well, a good place to start is Total Depravity:

Quote

I Cor. 2:14: The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
Gen. 2:17: But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Rom. 5:12: Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned.
II Cor. 1:9: Yea, we ourselves had the sentence of death within ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raiseth the dead.
Eph. 2:1-3: And you did He make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom ye also all once lived in the lusts of your flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Eph. 2:12: Ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Jer. 13:23: Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Ps. 51:5: Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.
John 3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Rom. 3:10-12: As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one;
There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;
They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one.
Job 14:4: Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
I Cor. 1:18: For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.
Acts 13:41: Behold, ye despisers, and wonder and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you.
Prov. 30:12: There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes,
And yet are not washed from their filthiness.
John 5:21: For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom He will.
John 6:53: Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, ye have not life in yourselves.
John 8:19: They said therefore unto Him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye know neither me, nor my Father; if ye knew me, ye would know my Father also.
Matt. 11:25: I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes.
II Cor. 5:17: if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature. John 14:16: (And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,) even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth Him not, neither knoweth Him; ye know Him; for He abideth with you, and shall be in you.
John 3:19: And this is the judgment, that light is come unto the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.



The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

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