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#19737 - Monday, December 6, 2004 3:08 PM "Christ died in a general way for all."?
Anonymous
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J Edwards said
"Christ died in a general way for all. There are benefits for both believers and non-believers. There is common grace applied to all in the Crucifixion. A good example of this is the preaching of the Word of God (the Gospel, the death, burial, and resurrection) to the unsaved. The mere fact they even hear it is common grace, et. al....."

I am not sure if I agree with this statement. Im not sure if I would ever say "Christ died for all." I was taught that all my life, but totally disagree. I know you did not mean it in a soteriological way yet it seems that is the only way it can be meant. I agree that there is a common grace in preaching the gospel but that in no way means his death was "in a general way" for them. I remember the first time I heard someone, who was reformed, say Christ died for all was in an article by charles hodge called "whom Christ died."
I would be interested in the scripture used for this belief.
I am interested in others opinions. Thanks


Edited by Soli Deo Gloria (Monday, December 6, 2004 3:36 PM)

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#19738 - Monday, December 6, 2004 11:44 PM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?
Anonymous
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#19739 - Tuesday, December 7, 2004 1:23 PM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?
Anonymous
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Thanks Ted. But I am aware that he was talking about common grace. And I also believe in common grace(Matt 5:45).
I am not sure we can apply this to the cross though. My question is, how did Christ die for every individual, even if it was in a general way.

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#19740 - Tuesday, December 7, 2004 1:41 PM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?
Anonymous
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Ted, the articles you posted on common grace do not answer or bring up my question. I read them and basically agree<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" /> with all of them. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Soli Deo Gloria (Tuesday, December 7, 2004 1:44 PM)

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#19741 - Friday, December 10, 2004 3:33 PM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?
Anonymous
Unregistered


does anyone know where it says Christ died in a general way for all?

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#19742 - Friday, December 10, 2004 3:59 PM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?
J_Edwards Offline
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Registered: Sunday, December 9, 2001
Posts: 4843
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Without getting into allot of detail did Christ die for You? If yes, have your ethics changed to glorify God? If yes again, are they affecting "all" you come in contact with. If yes, then Christ died for "all" in a general way. We could ask further if the Gospel is heard by both the elect and non-elect, if yes, then Christ died for all at least in a general way, etc. When Christ died/rose again He secured the ONLY way of salvation. Thus, the non-elect have no other way to God--thus, Christ died for all, etc.
_________________________
Reformed and Always Reforming,

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#19743 - Friday, December 10, 2004 5:10 PM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."? [Re: J_Edwards]
Tom Offline
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Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 4266
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
J_Edward

I agree with what you have written, but usually when someone says that Christ died for all in a general way, they use a verse like John 3:16 to back it up.

If I understand you correctly this is not the aspect you are talking about. John 3:16 as far as I can tell, is talking about an effectual kind of love that leads to salvation. So, I don't think John 3:16 can legitimately be used to support that argument.

Tom

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#19744 - Saturday, December 11, 2004 7:49 AM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."? [Re: Tom]
J_Edwards Offline
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Registered: Sunday, December 9, 2001
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Tom, I don't recall using John 3:16 as a defense of what I stated, but Christ still died for all in a general way.... Common grace is a theme both in the O.T. and the N.T. Do you or anyone else have any biblical defenses against Christ dieing for all men in a general way?

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#19745 - Saturday, December 11, 2004 10:55 AM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."? [Re: J_Edwards]
Pilgrim Offline

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Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
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Quote:
J_Edwards said:
Do you or anyone else have any biblical defenses against Christ dieing for all men in a general way?

Joe,

I understand what you are trying to set forth, i.e., that from the atonement which Christ accomplished for "His own", there are residual benefits which flow from those to whom the benefits belong to the rest of mankind. However, I have to say that the phraseology is one that I think brings unnecessary confusion, if for no other reason than that the majority of churches hold to a universal atonement and use that same phrase to describe their heretical doctrine. I personally prefer to speak of common grace as being distinct from the atonement to avoid any possible misunderstanding of that blessed doctrine of Particular Redemption. grin

In His Grace,
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#19746 - Saturday, December 11, 2004 11:46 AM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."? [Re: Pilgrim]
J_Edwards Offline
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Registered: Sunday, December 9, 2001
Posts: 4843
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Well so much for attempting to be brief, Common Grace is not the only issue as I alluded to earlier, but it still flows from the Cross (see Murray below) and thus IMO 'common grace cannot be looked at as being distinct from the atonement.' Another problem is that some individuals only look at the "positive aspects" of the term "general." Looking at the negative aspects, Christ did accomplish "something" for the non-elect on the Cross, and thus, ... Though the non-elect are "already condemned" (John 3:18) Christ sealed their judgment in His death/resurrection. He is LORD of ALL. EVERY knee will bow and the list goes on. Thus, Christ did die in a general way for ALL... For the elect He accomplished their salvation and for the non-elect He sealed their judgment. If we remove the fact that Christ did die to seal the judgment of the non-elect we remove a very valuable part of the Gospel IMO. Additionally, IMO it is difficult to separate common grace from the Cross, as Christ is LORD of all including common grace, etc.

As Murray states in Redemption Accomplished and Applied, The unbelieving and reprobate in this world enjoy numerous benefits that flow from the fact that Christ died and rose again. The mediatorial dominion of Christ is universal. Christ is head over all things and is given all authority in heaven and earth. It is within the mediatorial dominion that all the blessings which men enjoy are dispensed. But this dominion Christ exercises on the basis and as the reward of his finished work of redemption... (Phil 2:8-9). Consequentially, since all benefits and blessings are within the realm of Christ's dominion and since this dominion rests upon his finished work of atonement, the benefits innumerable which are enjoyed by all men indiscriminately are related to the death of Christ and may be said to accrue from it in one way or another. If they flow thus flow from the death they were intended thus to flow. It is proper, therefore, to say that the enjoyment of certain benefits, even by the non-elect and reprobate, falls within the design of the death of Christ.
_________________________
Reformed and Always Reforming,

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#19747 - Sunday, December 12, 2004 10:00 PM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."? [Re: J_Edwards]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with what pilgrim said but i admit i did not look at the "negative" things it accomplished for the non-elect.

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#19748 - Sunday, December 12, 2004 10:54 PM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."? [Re: J_Edwards]
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 4266
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Joe

I never said you did use John 3:16. I said that usually when I hear someone say that.
I also qualified what I was saying by telling you that I agreed with the way you said it.

Tom

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#19749 - Tuesday, December 14, 2004 12:19 AM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Please consider the following passages of Scripture:

Romans 11:32 (NASB)
"For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."

1 Corinthians 15:22 (NASB)
"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 (NASB)
"For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf."

2 Thessalonians 3:18 (NASB)
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all."

1 Timothy 2:5-6
"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."

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#19750 - Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:07 PM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ted, thanks for the scripture. I would encourage you to look at all of those verses in context and in light of what all other scripture reveals. I would say that all of the scripture given, in context, does not affirm Christs death for all(every individual). I would love to see you exegete any one of them.

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#19751 - Tuesday, December 14, 2004 9:44 PM Re: "Christ died in a general way for all."? [Re: J_Edwards]
Anonymous
Unregistered


JE,

I would argue that all things work to the bad for those who hate God and are not called according to his purpose. These so called "blessings" are curses. God is good to the reprobate but since his goodness will accuse the reprobate on the last day, I see the goodness of God as curses for the reprobate.

Blessings,

Ron

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