Adopted said:Tom,
Do you equate someone raising their hands in worship, with the Charismatic movement?
For today, I must say yes. I am very suspicious when people come in the door and start raising their hands in a church that traditionally does not. IMO, it is this subtle (signature) behavior of the Charismatics that eventually leads to the rest of their "merrymaking" and predatory attempt to proselytize the weaker members of the congregation.
They accuse the subject church of being "dead" because of its lack of "gifts" and then especially attack orthodox church doctrine as being unnecessary. The wiser Christian members see this coming but lose out for lack of numbers. Inevitably the more traditional church splits, or worse yet, disappears as a conquest of the "superior spiritual beings".
This is very pronounced in churches that are not reformed with solid and sound Scriptural armor. These disasters are pronounced in un-reformed so-called non-denominational churches. Un-reformed Baptist Churches and the more liberal Lutherans are not far behind as victims.
It goes without saying that another sign of the downfall of the victim church is a new and complete disregard of Scriptural sanity, reverence for the word and orthodoxy in the music. Meaningless and often drum driven music and informality in the worship service becomes more and more an attraction to others. Others, who simply do not want to consider the fact that we are sinners in desperate need of God's redemption and Scriptural guidance. The preaching of the word becomes a minor detail. I've never met a Charismatic that was not also an Arminian.
The Gospel is turned upside down and understood to be only a way to self-help and worldly prosperity (IMO, happy, clappy nothingness).
With all of this horrible and cancerous damage done, and being done, to the churches, the sole Scriptural defense of the Charismatic seems to be: "Where does it say in Scripture that we can't raise our hands?"
There, I said it.
Denny
Romans 3:22-24
This is an exact example of poisoning the well Denny. And what is Ironic, is Calvin is called the reformer of the Holy Spirit. Yet, the Holy Spirit is rarely if ever spoken upon in reformed churches these days. Any time a person attending the service, has a God given reaction, they are looked upon as some charismatic fundie.
Since we can not agree on the definition of Charisma, we are worlds apart. When I use the term, I am not speaking of "sign gifts". I am speaking of gracious life, being moved, having joy. And if the Spirit decides to move one to raise their hands, and shout praise God, He will do such, and you or any other starched person can do nothing about it.
Christ said "I came to give you life and to have it abundantly" Joy is another response Denny.
When Christ healed the multitudes, what was their response Denny? They screamed in excitement. "I was blind and now I see" now that is biblical charisma, BiblicaL joy!!!!!
I will again point you to David
14: And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
15: So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
16: And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.
17: And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.
18: And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts.
19: And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house.
20: Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!
21: And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.
22: And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.
23: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.
Michal is you denny.
