The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Subjective experience

Ok.... I've found some info in some books and so I am going to throw it out here for you all to take a look at and let me know what you think.

Calvin is clearly stating that the highest proof of all for the credibility of the Scriptures is the certainty that the Holy Spirit imparts to all believers. This is, of course, outside the objective realm and into the subjective world of internal testimony and confidence. But Calvin is not retreating here to some kind of mysticism, where belief in God’s Word can be attained only through a blind leap of faith. The Holy Spirit does not give the Christian new proofs in Scripture that are unavailable to everyone else. Nor does he impart new arguments or knowledge about Scripture that is unavailable to the unregenerate person. But the Spirit does enable the Christian to believe all the objective evidences we have discussed thus far. Nonbelievers can read the same bible, grapple with the same arguments, and still lack certainty, the supernatural certainty that comes only by the supernatural ministry of the Holy Spirit. --- R.C. Sproul from “Defending your Faith”

Also, J.I. Packer states in his book “Keep In Step With The Spirit” that there are certain “perceptions” of God that we have that are experiential in nature. Not in a mystical way or in a way that would lead us to “subjectivism” and “existentialism,” But in a way that we can’t define objectively. He says that the great Puritans and especially the late-flowering Puritan Jonathan Edwards wrote of experiential fellowship.

He also states in his book “Knowing God” that knowing God is a matter of personal involvement – mind, will and feeling. It would not, indeed, be a fully personal relationship otherwise. The emotional side of knowing God is often played down these days, for fear of encouraging a maudlin of self-absorption. It is true that there is nothing more irreligious then self-absorbed religion, and that it is constantly needful to stress that God does not exist for our comfort or happiness or satisfaction, or to provide us with “religious experiences,” as if these were the most interesting and important things in life. But, for all this, we must not lose sight of the fact that knowing God is an emotional relationship, as well as an intellectual and volitional one, and could not indeed be a deep relation between persons were it not so. The believer is and must be, emotionally involved in the victories and vicissitudes of God’s cause in the world, just as Sir Winston’s personal staff were emotionally involved in the ups and downs of the war. Believers rejoice when their God is honored and vindicated and fell the acutest distress when they see God flouted. This is the emotional and experiential side of friendship with God. Ignorance of it argues that, however true a person’s thoughts of God may be, he does not yet know the God of whom he is thinking.

A Volitional element ( fiducia ). This is the crowing element of faith. Faith is not merely a matter of the intellect, nor of the intellect and the emotions combined; it is also a matter of the will, determining the direction of the soul, an act of the soul going out towards its object and appropriating this. Without this activity the object of faith, which the sinner recognizes as true and real and entirely applicable to his present needs, remains outside of him.

An emotional element ( assensus ). Barth calls attention to the fact that the time when man accepts Christ by faith is the existential moment of his life, in which he ceases to consider the object of faith in a detached and disinterested way, and begins to feel a lively interest in it. It is not necessary to adopt Barth’s peculiar construction of the doctrine of faith, to admit the truth of what he says on this point. When one embraces Christ by faith, he has a deep conviction of the truth and reality of the object of faith, feels that It meets an important need in his life, and is conscious of an absorbing interest in it, - and this is assent. It is very difficult to distinguish this assent from the knowledge of faith just described, because, as we have seen, it is exactly the distinguishing characteristics of the knowledge of saving faith, that it carries with it a conviction of the truth and reality of its object. Hence come theologians have shown an inclination to limit the knowledge of faith to a mere taking cognizance of the object of faith; but (1) this is contrary to experience, for in true faith there is no knowledge that does not include a hearty conviction of truth and reality of its object and an interest in it; and (2) this would make the knowledge in saving faith identical with that which is found in a purely historical faith, while the difference between historical and saving faith lies in part exactly at this point. Because it is so difficult to make a clear distinction, some theologians prefer to speak of only two elements in saving faith, namely, knowledge and personal trust. These are the two elements mentioned in the Heidelberg Catechism when it says that true faith “is not only a certain knowledge whereby I hold for true all that God has revealed to us in His Word, but also a hearty trust which the Holy Ghost works in me by the gospel.” It probably deserves preference to regard knowledge and assent simply as two aspects of the same element in faith. Knowledge may then be regarded as its more passive and receptive side, and assent as its more active and transitive side. ---- Louis Berkhof from his “Systematic Theology”

So…… I’m still a little confused, but what I’m thinking here is that our Christian faith can’t be just knowledge of doctrine, but there has to be genuine emotion attached to our faith. The “subjective experience” is a way for us to know that what we’re learning about God is His “objective truth.” This is the work of the Spirit in us convicting us that what we are accepting as truth is truth. But we can’t have one without the other. We can’t rely solely on our subjective experience and feelings and we can’t rely on just our knowledge of scripture….. for even the demons have knowledge about God.

Dave.