Posts: 15,025
Joined: April 2001
|
|
|
|
Forums31
Topics8,348
Posts56,544
Members992
| |
Most Online2,383 Jan 12th, 2026
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 710
Addict
|
Addict
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 710 |
Pilgrim, First I do not deny that many people of the Dutch reformed tradition do or have believed in a “Presumed Regeneration” but would say they are now in the minority. Pilgrim said: William,
It surely sounds like you are defending your denomination rather than the error they embrace? Sorry but I don’t think you worded this remark very well. If you are saying that my denomination holds to presumptive regeneration, I have to ask you to please not misrepresent them across the world wide web. Pilgrim said: As to your question as to where I got the version of the "Form for the Baptism of Infants", it was scanned in from the back of the Psalter Hymnal which was dated some 40 years old. As I mentioned before, in most all of the Dutch Reformed churches I have attended who used this hymnal which contained the Three Forms of Unity and various forms for baptism, the Lord's Supper, etc., this Form was included and used. O.K. the FORM you have checks out except for some modern spelling. Below is some rather pertinent information. Most of these forms were composed during the sixteenth-century Reformation, The forms for the administration of infant baptism, the Lord's Supper, and the solemnization of marriage first appeared in a 1566 edition of the Dutch Psalter edited by Petrus Dathenus (1531-1588), a leading minister in the Reformed churches in the Netherlands. In composing these forms Dathenus borrowed heavily from existing liturgies based on Calvin's Geneva liturgy. The Reformed churches adopted these forms at the Convent Of Wesel in 1568. The forms for the administration of church discipline, the ordination of ministers, and the ordination of elders and deacons were added by the Synod of the Hague in 1586. The form for the baptism of adults was accepted by the Synod of Dordrecht in 1618-19.
An English translation of these forms, original prepared in the Netherlands for use in the English and Scottish refugee churches, was later revised ,and adopted by the Reformed Church in America. This translation, with minor revision and correction, Was adopted by the Christian Reformed Church in North America in 1912 and first appeared in the 1927 edition of the Psalter, . . . Pilgrim said: And to make it clear once again which evidently I have not done, the colored portions were colored by me to point out those portions in the Form which teach "presumptive regeneration". I can colorize almost any document to make hold forth my position. Pilgrim asked What does it mean that the children of believers brought for baptism are "sanctified in Christ"? Can you give Scriptural evidence to support your understanding? As I’m sure you know it has reference to 1 Corinthians 7:14. Below is an explanation of sanctified from a’Brakel “The Christians Reasonable Service” and to be honest I have emboldened where a presumptive regeneration (according to your definition)is implied. Nevertheless any truly regenerated creature would never consider their children regenerated because they are born to presumed Christian parents. But rather they would seek to bring them up in the nurture of the Lord at the same time praying that God would savingly change them between the cradle and the grave. Surely no spiritually enlightened parent is going to look at their children who show no fruits as being born again. The focus on the FORM, again I would have to say must be looked at in the light of the “Three Forms of Unity” The Synod of Dordrecht in 1618-19 accepted the form for the baptism of adults and if the Form for children was fifty years earlier why didn’t they reject it. Eighthly, the form for baptism asks of parents and witnesses, “Whether you acknowledge...that they (their children) are sanctified in Christ, and therefore, as members of His church ought to be baptized?” In order to understand this question correctly, it must be noted: (1) This form addresses members of the covenant and speaks of their children. (2) To be sanctified does not imply that the children at that moment are in truth possessors of the principle of faith, regeneration, and sanctification. It also does not imply that all baptized children are, and particularly, that my child is elect, will be converted, and be a partaker of salvation. Rather, it means in a general sense that children of members of the covenant, by virtue of the covenant made with them and their children, are entitled to its benefits and will become partakers of them. This is in distinction to the children of those who are not members of the covenant and for whom there are no promises in the Word. The salvation of the latter, if they die in infancy, is a matter which pertains to the sovereign and secret dealings of God, there being no foundation in regard to which something can be stated about them. And as long as children of members of the covenant manifest nothing which is either in their favor or disfavor, we may not discriminate among them, but by reason of the promise must deem them to be children of God until the contrary manifests itself. Therefore, to be sanctified in Christ means to be a partaker of Christ. (3) To be sanctified does not mean to be included in an external covenant, for there is no external covenant. The parents have the salvation of their child in view, and not something of an external nature. The sacraments are not seals of an external covenant, but only of the covenant of grace, and signs and seals of the righteousness of faith. Also the child is acknowledged as being sanctified in Christ, which cannot be said in reference to an external covenant. It is furthermore acknowledged that the child is sanctified prior to baptism, and therefore ought to be baptized. The child therefore does not become a member of the covenant by virtue of baptism; he was already a member prior to baptism, and prior to the child’s baptism there was also no other covenant but the covenant of grace. (4) Some wish to change the form and say, “to be sanctified in Christ, or those who are sanctified, must be sanctified in Christ.” This is the result of ignorance and misunderstanding concerning this matter. If they wish these words to mean something different than to be in the covenant of grace (which appears to be the intent), I cannot understand on what basis they let their children or other children be baptized, since there is no other foundation for baptism but the covenant of grace, of which baptism is a seal. I sincerely ask you a question. Are you implying that the WCF teaches that God kills the little baby, which He does, and THEN the Spirit of God saves his/her soul? Or is regeneration necessary for the saving of an elect infants never dying soul before the death of the body in what ever stage of development it's in? Thanks for the stimulus package, William "the layman”
|
|
|
|
|
Entire Thread
|
Monergism
|
Tom
|
Sun May 10, 2009 10:34 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Pilgrim
|
Sun May 10, 2009 11:42 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Peter
|
Mon May 11, 2009 7:44 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Pilgrim
|
Mon May 11, 2009 9:09 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
William
|
Mon May 11, 2009 9:49 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Pilgrim
|
Mon May 11, 2009 10:51 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
William
|
Tue May 12, 2009 12:53 AM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Pilgrim
|
Tue May 12, 2009 6:21 AM
|
Re: Monergism
|
William
|
Tue May 12, 2009 12:35 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Pilgrim
|
Tue May 12, 2009 4:12 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
William
|
Tue May 12, 2009 8:39 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Pilgrim
|
Tue May 12, 2009 9:34 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
William
|
Tue May 12, 2009 10:09 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Robin
|
Wed May 13, 2009 11:52 AM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Pilgrim
|
Wed May 13, 2009 3:23 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Robin
|
Wed May 13, 2009 8:20 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Pilgrim
|
Wed May 13, 2009 8:32 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
William
|
Thu May 14, 2009 10:03 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Pilgrim
|
Thu May 14, 2009 10:27 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
William
|
Thu May 14, 2009 11:09 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Pilgrim
|
Fri May 15, 2009 12:29 AM
|
Re: Monergism
|
heidi
|
Sat May 16, 2009 5:43 AM
|
Re: Monergism
|
William
|
Sat May 16, 2009 11:14 AM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Peter
|
Sun May 17, 2009 12:10 AM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Pilgrim
|
Tue May 19, 2009 5:25 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
William
|
Tue May 19, 2009 11:26 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Pilgrim
|
Tue May 19, 2009 11:58 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
William
|
Wed May 20, 2009 12:14 AM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Pilgrim
|
Wed May 20, 2009 5:35 PM
|
Re: Monergism
|
Pilgrim
|
Tue May 19, 2009 5:15 PM
|
|
|
|
0 members (),
512
guests, and
48
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
31
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There are no members with birthdays on this day. |
|
|
|
|