True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
I concure. This movie is being promoted blindly by signicant persons in the supposed evangelical mainstream. Gibson's statements regarding his own wife's salvation (since she is non-Catholic) reveals something too. Above all else, this is a Catholic movie designed to win people over to the Roman Catholic church. But of course, those who raise a warning will be considered harsh and "unchristian" in their stance. Discernment is the gift the 21st Century church neeeds.
not sure....was Christ not a man? Is the only thing being conveyed is that Jesus was a man...and a compassionate one at that? Is this not wholly consistent with the biblical text...adding nothing of import, taking way nothing?
Laz,
See my comments concerning Chalcedon and the two natures of Christ. Further read my comments in regard to the human nature of Christ which was perfect in every way; without sin. To attempt to separate and portray the human nature of Christ apart from His divine nature is to fall into the errors of Nestorius. Further, even Christ's "compassion" transcended anything that even the best of men could hope to extend to others. Bottom line: how could any human hope to portray Christ, the incarnate Son of God, without bringing dishonor to Him?
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Are we prohibited from preaching about the horrid nature of the Crucifixion because of fear people will create images in their mind of what it must have been like and therefore be guilty of idol making?
This is a "tongue-in-cheek" question, right?
1 Corinthians 1:23-25 (ASV) "but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness; but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men."
If pragmatism is to be the basis for deciding whether or not to preach the truth, as God commands us to do, then Stephen and all the Martyrs throughout history were evidently lacking in good judgment.
BTW, notice the exact words of the Second Commandment:
Exodus 20:4 (ASV) Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness [of any thing] that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
The most reliable commentators, even some of us lesser students of Scripture, have always interpreted the emphasized phrase to mean that NO LIKENESS of any of the three persons of the Godhead, are to be made for ANY purpose whatsoever. I must agree with Ursinus, who wrote the Heidelberg Catechism, which says in Lord's Day 35
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Q96: What does God require in the second Commandment? A96: That we in no way make any image of God,[1] nor worship Him in any other way than He has commanded us in His Word.[2]
1. Deut. 4:15-19; Isa. 40:18, 25; Rom. 1:22-24; Acts 17:29 2. I Sam. 15:23; Deut. 4:23-24; 12:30-32; Matt. 15:9; John 4:24
Q97: May we not make any image at all? A97: God may not and cannot be imaged in any way; as for creatures, though they may indeed be imaged, yet God forbids the making or keeping of any likeness of them, either to worship them or to serve God by them.[1]
1. Exod. 23:24-25; 34:13-14; Deut. 7:5; 12:3; 16:22; II Kings 18:4; John 1:18
Q98: But may not pictures be tolerated in churches as books for the people?
A98: No, for we should not be wiser than God, who will not have His people taught by dumb idols,[1] but by the lively preaching of His Word.[2]
1. Jer. 10:8; Hab. 2:18-19 2. II Peter 1:19; II Tim. 3:16-17; Rom. 10:17
Herman Hoeksema, in his commentary, The Triple Knowledge (Reformed Free Publishing Association: Vol III, pp. 166-67), says on Lord's Day 35:
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To this we may add that it is always quite impossible not only to make an image of God, but even to make an image of Christ incarnate. The Catechism contrasts the use of images in the churches with the lively preaching of the Word. And that is undoubtedly correct. Suppose you have images of all the phases of the historical Jesus, as He sojourned on earth in the years 1 to 33 A. D. Would all those images together be a true representation of the Christ of the Scriptures? They would not; and they never could be. You may make an image of the Babe of Bethlehem lying in the manger; but that image could never represent the Son of God incarnate. You can make images of all the phases of the suffering of Christ on the Via Dolorosa in its different stages — images that are usually set up in the Roman Catholic Churches; but can an image of the cross possibly represent the Word of the Cross, the logos tou staurou, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them? That is forever impossible. Such an image cannot possibly serve as a book for the laity, but can only serve to cover up the gospel of Jesus Christ our Lord. God was not only in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself when the Son of God in the human nature died on the accursed tree, but He also put the Word of the cross in the apostles. And the apostles proclaimed that Word of the cross. If it had not been for that revelation of God Himself, we could never have understood the cross. And that cross, arrested in one of its moments by a dumb image, is deprived of all its glory and power. And what to say of an image of the Christ in His resurrection, and in His ascension, and in His exaltation at the right hand of God? It is evident that a dumb image in wood or stone can only serve to deprive the exalted Christ of His glory and power. Hence, we must not have images in the churches, not even as books of the laity. For they can never represent the glorious gospel of God revealed in Jesus Christ our Lord. But we must have the lively preaching of the Word of God, which brings unto us the complete Christ of the Scriptures, the Son of God in the flesh, conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary, Who suffered and died for our sins, and in Whom God reconciled us unto Himself, Who rose for our justification in the glory of immortality, and Who is exalted at the right hand of God, there to make intercession for all His people. Hence, the Heidelberg Catechism is certainly correct when it states in the answer to Question 98: “We must not pretend to be wiser than God, who will have his people taught, not by dumb images, but by the lively preaching of his word.”
Doubtless, what he wrote applies equally if not more to those who would take it upon themselves to portray the Lord Christ in a movie, play, etc.
How are we to take "the likeness of any THING"? Why would this not exclude paintings of nature, people, etc? But we see no one arguing in favor of THAT!
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
First of all, if I recall the movie Ben Hur, although I admit to having watched it probably a dozen times over the years, there was only one solitary scene in the entire movie where Christ was clearly introduced. And in that one scene, again IF my aging memory serves me well, you didn't see Christ at all. What you did see was but a shadow of a figure of one who offered a cup of water to Charleton Heston as he was being marched along in a group who were all shackled together, etc. Nevertheless, whether my memory of the movie is accurate or not, what stands true is that Ben Hur should not be our standard for determining whether or not a sinful man should take upon the role of the incarnate Son of the Living God. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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Can any sermon be preached that portrays Christ perfectly...and therefore without doing any dishonor to Him?
Hmmmmm, is this YOU asking this? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Let's look at this in the most simple way, shall we?
The Scriptures forbid the making or use of images and/or representations of any of the three persons of the Godhead.
The two natures of Christ cannot be separated or intermixed. (cf. Chalcedon)
It is impossible for anyone to portray Christ as an actor without bifurcating the two natures.
To attempt to bifurcate the human nature of Christ from His divine nature is to be guilty of the heresy of Nestorianism.
The human nature of Christ was 100% perfect and thus no human being is capable of portraying it without dishonoring Him and blaspheming God. (cf. 3rd Commandment)
Scripture commands that Christ be preached in the Church and to the nations. (cf. the New Testament)
Therefore, since it is God's will and explicit command that fallible men preach "Christ and Him crucified" (cf. Acts 5:42; 1Cor 1:23f; 2:2; 2Cor 4:5; 2Tim 4:2; et al), we should not shrink back or refuse to do so, knowing that God has chosen imperfect vessels to preach the Perfect One, Christ Jesus. God has promised that His Spirit will work in and through His Word for proclamation of Jesus Christ with the intent to both call sinners to faith and to edify the saints.
sbc_and_reformed said: How are we to take "the likeness of any THING"? Why would this not exclude paintings of nature, people, etc? But we see no one arguing in favor of THAT!
Marie,
Since you have access to a plethora of books; working in a theological library, why not find a copy of Ursinus' commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism and see what he has to say about that in the section regarding "Lord's Day 35"? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
In brief, the Second Commandment forbids the making of images or any representation of the three persons of the Godhead, and/or the using of them for worship. There is no reference nor prohibition against "art" in general, e.g., sculpting, painting, etc. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
The first two Commandments deal with two different aspects of right worship. 1) Only the true God may be worshiped, and 2) The one True God must be worshiped rightly. So again, there is nothing in either of those Commandments that has anything to do with art which isn't representative of the three persons of the Godhead.
I will have to read that <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Is the reason why we shouldn't take the "any THING" so literally is that the temple was ornamented, Moses was commanded to create the serpent figure, etc? This is a matter of context, then?
Maybe a leson on the Hebrew used there would halp too.
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Is the reason why we shouldn't take the "any THING" so literally is that the temple was ornamented, Moses was commanded to create the serpent figure, etc? This is a matter of context, then?
Marie,
Yes, you can use those things to help interpret that text. But, even the immediate CONTEXT would indicate and restrict the "any thing" to the making of objects, representations, etc. which are of the Godhead. More explicit texts are to be found, however, as ancillary to the Second Commandment, e.g., notice the context of the following and looooooong quote from Deuteronomy 4. It is immediately antecedent to the reiteration of the Ten Commandments. And, it contains not a few times the forbidding of the making of representations of (all kinds of things) of God. :
Deuteronomy 4:9-40 (ASV) "Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes saw, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life; but make them known unto thy children and thy children's children; the day that thou stoodest before Jehovah thy God in Horeb, when Jehovah said unto me, Assemble me the people, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children. And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the heart of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness. And Jehovah spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of words, but ye saw no form; only [ye heard] a voice. And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even the ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And Jehovah commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of form on the day that Jehovah spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire. Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flieth in the heavens, the likeness of anything that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth; and lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun and the moon and the stars, even all the host of heaven, thou be drawn away and worship them, and serve them, which Jehovah thy God hath allotted unto all the peoples under the whole heaven. But Jehovah hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as at this day. Furthermore Jehovah was angry with me for your sakes, and sware that I should not go over the Jordan, and that I should not go in unto that good land, which Jehovah thy God giveth thee for an inheritance: but I must die in this land, I must not go over the Jordan; but ye shall go over, and possess that good land. Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of Jehovah your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image in the form of anything which Jehovah thy God hath forbidden thee. For Jehovah thy God is a devouring fire, a jealous God. When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have been long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image in the form of anything, and shall do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah thy God, to provoke him to anger; I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over the Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. And Jehovah will scatter you among the peoples, and ye shall be left few in number among the nations, whither Jehovah shall lead you away. And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. But from thence ye shall seek Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt find him, when thou searchest after him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, in the latter days thou shalt return to Jehovah thy God, and hearken unto his voice: for Jehovah thy God is a merciful God; he will not fail thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from the one end of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been [any such thing] as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it? Did ever a people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live? Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of [another] nation, by trials, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by an outstretched arm, and by great terrors, according to all that Jehovah your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes? Unto thee it was showed, that thou mightest know that Jehovah he is God; there is none else besides him. Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he made thee to see his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire. And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out with his presence, with his great power, out of Egypt; to drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as at this day. Know therefore this day, and lay it to thy heart, that Jehovah he is God in heaven above and upon the earth beneath; there is none else. And thou shalt keep his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days in the land, which Jehovah thy God giveth thee, for ever."
I agree with you. The ones that I know who want to see the movie is doing it mostly out of the fact that it is being treated so negatively by the liberal press and other nonChristian groups. The mentality of if they are 'agin it', it must be good.
John Chaney
"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ."Colossians 2:7
You said: "You don't have to jump into the sewer to know that it stinks!" When I was writing my post I was trying to think of that exact quote, but couldn't remember it.
One thing that is quite strange about some of these people is that in most issues we agree with each other.
I would also like to add that I was talking to another friend over coffee yesterday. When I told him the information about the Roman Catholic mystic, his response was that this matter is one where we need to go with our particular consciences on the issue. He gave a Scripture verse that talked about that, but I can’t remember which one it was.
I dropped the subject because I could see that it wouldn’t go anywhere. But although he would disagree with what I am about to say, if he was consistent, he would have to say that because his conscience doesn’t bother him it would be alright to jump into a sewer. By the way he never disputed the point about the film, using a Roman Catholic mystic.
fellows, I have sort of followed this discussion, but I have not kept up with it in full, so forgive me if this has been mentioned. I have concerns about the film like you all do. I am particularly bugged by the RCC overtones the movie will take in some of the plotting of the scenes (Gibson drawing from the narrative of this kook woman from the 17 hundreds). However, we need to face the facts, gentlemen: this movie ain't going away, and as much as you like it or not, you will be drawn into a discussion about this movie with either a relative, co-worker, fellow student, or who ever. Regardless of what conviction a person has about seeing the film, and most who post here are vehemently opposed to it, I do hope you all will be prepared with the truth of scripture to present to the various inquiries that this movie will produce. Granted, as I have been telling everyone who asks my opinion about a movie I haven't seen, I am not naive to think that this is the catalyst for the 3rd American Great Awakening; but, the opportunities for evangelism is going to be like shooting fish in a barrel. One of my volunteers here at GTY has a Jewish neighbor who otherwise would have no interest in Jesus Chrits, but the charges of anti-semitism leveled by the lamebrains at the JDL has stirred her interest and she actually wants to see it and has asked my volunteer friend to go with her. I told him to go armed with the scripture and the truth of what Christ did on the cross, and fill in the theological gaps the movie leaves out. Am I really suppose to tell this guy to forget what could be an opportunity of evangelism because the movie supposedly violates the 2nd commandment? I would imagine that there will be some who would reply to me with a resounding "Yes!" But, I trust the Lord can use a RCC driven film to override the errors in a movie to bring a person to Christ. I was asking my boss, Phil Johnson, about his thoughts on the movie, and he voiced the same concerns we have all voiced here; yet, he said, "I wasn't positive about the events that transpired on 9/11, but God did a mighty work in the lives of people through all of that horror." He is correct. We had hundreds of people contact our radio ministry to find some answers to what they witnessed on TV that day, and the testimonies I have read of people being saved because of what 19 Muslims did to sober them to the reality of eternity, is rather amazing.
Whether or not a person should see this movie I leave to their individual conscience before God. I think the above analogy Tom used of "I don't have to jump into a sewer to know it is a sewer" is a tad extreme; a Christian won't loose his salvation viewing this movie. But those who have convictions about seeing it, or any movie for that matter, I do hope inform themselves to some degree about what it is about, and trust the Lord in his sovereign providence to work all things out for the good of those who love God.
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
There is a measure of truth to what you say in regard to the film being useful in that it will provide an opportunity in some cases for evangelism. It is also true, just in case you haven't noticed, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> that I am 100%, completely, unabashedly, adamantly opposed to this film for several reasons. BUT... if a situation arose, such as you mentioned, re: an unbeliever asked me to go see the film with him/her, I would certainly go. There are some very specific circumstances where I think it is allowable for a Christian to go see this movie, which does not violate the adage, which btw, is hardly extreme but clearly taught in Scripture: "You don't have to jump into the sewer to know that it stinks!" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Where this truth applies is when someone has information about something that is sinful, untruthful, harmful, etc., that has come from a reliable source, then it would be just plain stupid to engage in that thing for the purpose of experiencing, learning, etc., to gain first-hand experience.
Applying this to the present discussion of "The Passion of Christ", there have been numerous individuals, reliable, godly, doctrinally sound, righteous in life individuals who have previewed this movie as part of their job, as one responsible for the souls of a flock, etc., and reported what they saw and have given their assessment of it. Therefore, it would be prudent and wise for someone who hasn't seen the film to take seriously the warnings and condemnations which have come forth from these men and women who are of good report. It is my opinion, that to ignore these reports and choose to see the film JUST TO HAVE FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE for oneself is akin to "playing with fire". So, there may be exceptions that apply and that would warrant some to go see this film. But the general rule and the adage certainly is applicable to the majority of professing Christians.
I just finished reading Bennett & Dunbar's article on Gibson's blasphemy/deception. It is truly a penetrating and insightful analysis in my view. Clearly the best of what I have seen so far.
The parallel they draw between the sin of Jeroboam in advocating a false worship and a false God and todays religious leaders in advocating Gibson's blasphemous idolotry to their followers is most timely and their call to repentance for those involved in this sin is entirely Scriptural I believe.
Thank you, once again, for providing tasty and healthy food for thought for those who visit the Highway. May many be strengthened.
I have to agree with your assessment of that article! I am amazed at the background info that Mr.Bennett comes up with in his articles, he sure does his homework and his insights are often right on target as they appear to be here.
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