The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Are those who die young always part of the elect?

That's OK, Michele.

Please see my response to Janean.

Michele,

In regard to Spurgeon and my comment that I believe he is totally inconsistent at this point, I meant that for a Baptist, NO ONE can be saved unless they profess Christ and are then baptized. Baptists adamantly oppose infant baptism because they refuse to believe that an infant can be saved due to the fact that it can't make a profession of faith. But in the particular situation, Spurgeon and all who agree with him as Baptists, totally contradict this belief when they assert that an unborn infant or with many, even infants who are born and die young can be saved. They go so far as to say that ALL who die in infancy or unborn are elect and therefore saved. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

It is a "stretch" for the same illogical reason that if there are some individuals who are elect, then why not say that all are elect? Karl Barth did... as do all Universalists! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Your "apples" are give special preference, a special dispensation, or whatever you would like to describe it, over the "oranges". And, for the very last time, there is NO biblical basis for this view whatsoever. . . NONE!!

What we DO know is that ALL are conceived in sin. ALL humans are born guilty before God. ALL are born with a depraved nature. ALL are under the wrath of God and subject to condemnation. We also know that out of the entire human race, there is only a "remnant" that is saved. So the Postmillennialists like Boettner, who are wont to read into such words as "victorious", etc. re: the kingdom, force this to mean quantity rather than quality. That is, the number of saved, according to them, MUST exceed those who are lost if Christ is to be the Victor. Now, to further this erroneous eisogesis, they make all infants who die in infancy elect and saved, and thus they have their larger number. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />

It's no "stretch" to accept the biblical doctrine of Original Sin, Total Depravity and Unconditional Election and then to read that the vast majority of people on earth have perished in unbelief, knowing that God has elected some to eternal life and the majority to eternal punishment, and knowing that millions of unborn and infants have died (because they are sinners) and some are also elect and some are also reprobate. This is consist with the doctrines of grace and the overall teaching of Scripture. There is no need to dream up some "special grace" for babies, who are no less sinners and which are qualified for hell by virtue of their being part of Adam's race.

No, that's not sentimentalism. That is a distortion of the biblical teaching concerning God's love. What you have done is to take God's general "benevolence" and twisted it so as to make it salvific. There is the general "love" of God, (Titus 3:4 cf. Greek: chrestotes=kindness, goodness; and philanthropia=benevolence) and there is the salvific, particular love for the elect (Jer 31:3; Jh 3:16; 10:14; Rom 5:8; Eph 1:4; 2:4; 2Tim 1:9). There is nothing in either God's benevolence toward all mankind nor in our responsibility to "love our neighbor" or "pray for our enemies" that lends itself to the salvation of infants.

So, it's all yours at this point. I'm done. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

I did see it Marie, and I will say again.. no one has ever said that God HAS to save anyone

I believe it is completely consistant with God's character to save infants who die. Not just some.

Once again, if God somehow, in some way, saves an infant that you call "elect" then I put it to you that I believe that He does that for every single infant... not adult.

God is just, God is soveriegn and good. everything he does is right. But He is alsomerciful.. His mercies are new every morning and He is also love. His grace is free.

(And about your post, I did think it an awful thing to say, and even think. I don't think it's a good argument. But I also didn't want Janean to think I was making such a strong statement to her while she is still so new.. or that I thought she made the original remark.)

Michele

Are you suggesting that someone who is the elect of God can lose that status? If you hold open the possibility that all infants are elect then you must be suggesting that when they come to the age of reasoning things for themselves they can alter God's decree. Although this is the way some people think, this is not Calvinism.


Wes

Pilgrim et. al.

I am also done. I made my last post to Marie. I have not been persuaded one iota in the other direction. In fact, quite the opposite. I am more than ever convinced of what i am saying. Maybe Gill put it best for ending this post on an amiable note?

I know this was to John.. but I am tempted to write this post lol.

It is not ALL.. or EVERY SINGLE infant EVER born. It is those who DIE in infancy. I don't think God has no idea that one will die. He knows those who will die in infancy. He knows those who will not.

Michele

It's a wonder He elected anyone in the first place. Keep in mind that man by nature is inherently sinful and totally depraved. Why would it be a "problem" for God not to save every infant who dies prematurely?

Michele,

I understand your selective reasoning. Unfortunately your warm fuzzy view of how God views infants is not consistant with Biblical teaching. As has been said by others, you have a right to hold whatever view you wish, but you have failed to prove your presupposition Scripturally.


Wes

Then please show me where infants are not elect.

Not adults, or all of mankind..

but INFANTS go to hell.

We already agree that all of mankind is born in sin.

That all of mankind is born with depravity.

Specifically show me in scripture where an infant died and went to hell.

I'm hearing what you say, and trying to understand your logic, however there seems to be a significant problem here. If you agree that ALL of mankind is born in sin and depraved then where does Scripture make an exception for infants? Aren't infants and adults both considered mankind?

Would you please give me your interpretation of what it means to be "elect?"


Wes

Wes,

Since you answered my question with a question, I will do the same. I think we both have the same thing in mind concerning what "election" means. I will ask you then.. where do you see in the bible that any infant that has died, was not elect. I already know that God hated Esau from the womb. Esau did not die in infancy. Neither did Absolom.

Which infants that have died, that are recorded in the bible, have been elect, or not elect?

Do you know?

Anyone I have read so far (and keep reading) have said that these seem to be the "secret things of God" and that scripture is silent on it. So I am wondering if you have found something that confirms that any infant who has died in infancy is recorded as being in hell. Or that only elect INFANTS who die in infancy are in heaven.

I only know that there is the elect of God. They are the ones who go to heaven by the free grace of God.... by His own choosing before the foundation of the world.

We see John the baptist. He was obviously 'saved' in the womb. (Or regenerated, however you define it) So it is possible for God to do such a thing. Still, he did not die in infancy.

You say "only for those 'elect' infants."

I say that any infant who dies in infancy is elect.

I see that we are disagreeing, and we may just need to agree to disagree on this point. But if you can answer my questions, I will gladly check it out.

Michele

If all unborn children or infants, dying, go to heaven, then we need not worry about raising godly offspring. We guarantee them an "in" by killing them, whereas we allow them the chance to go to hell if we don't.


I don't see how marrying unbelievers ties into this; I'm simply pointing our where your logic leads.

Unfortunately you're asking me to explain something that is a mystery which only God knows. We don't know who the elect are. We only know the things that He has revealed.

Since you haven't answered my first question to you but have moved on to the second one you are missing an important point. That is that infants and adults are part of mankind, not a seperate commodity. Thus they are included in what Scripture tells us about all mankind.

There is none righteous God says, no not one! He didn't say that there are none righteous except babies. Those are the thoughts of men, not of God! There is none righteous, and that includes children (despite what some may claim). Romans 5:12 says: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." It doesn't say "all except for children," it says all.

Some try and circumvent Scripture by saying, Child Salvation only lasts until they reach a certain age or accountability, and then their Salvation simply disappears? God's Word doesn't teach about vanishing Salvation at age 4, 7, or 12. God's Word says He is both the author (starter) and finisher of our faith! God's Word says he is always with us and will never leave us! God's word speaks of eternal life, not temporary life dependant on our age. God says no one can pluck them out of His hand. How can we then conclude something else?

John 10:28

"And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand."

Do we say, "that's not true what God says about them never perishing, and having eternal life?" Does never perish now change to, "Oops, they just might?" If all children were indeed under God's Salvation, then they would never perish and have everlasting life, and no one could pluck them out of God's hand. And that would mean every man woman and child in the world (we were all once children) are Saved, and will never perish.

We shouldn't assume what Scripture doesn't teach.


Wes

I was pointing out the way I see your logic. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Michele

Hi Wes,

No I am in no way suggesting that people can lose their status of salvation. Once saved always saved. I am also not suggesting that anyone can alter God's decree. But as Michele pointed out in her response, I hold open the possibility that God might have decreed and elected all infants who die to go to Heaven. I am not saying this is what I believe to be true, but I am saying that I think it could be a possibility that does not conflict with Calvinism. See the Boettner article I linked to in another part of this thread.

John