The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum What Kind of Music is in Your Church?

But to go just on emotions is not allways right. Some churches go after what drives the emothons and are able to lead people in anyway they want.

Perhaps emotions is not being perceived as an accurate description on my part.

The bilical example


Denny, please, before you hastily bring out the rack, i should have mentioned I have a close relationship with this minister. He is a member of our body, and also knows he is too starched and dry. He did not want reverance. He has translated "Decent and in order" to mean monotone and zero reaction.

If one lifts up holy hands to God, and praises Him for the work He has done for His sheep, noone should stop them. Why the church has so many Michals, I will never know. Remember what David told her when she rained on his parade, or at least tried to.

Also remeber when blind bart was screaming for Jesus to have mercy on him, and the apostles scolded him for not acting "properly" Again what did Christ say?

Joe k,

I asked you what standard of "Charisma" you would allow and you said:


I must remind you that the Charismatics sincerely believe that they have the biblical "Charisma". What you are really saying here is we should use the "Joe k example of Charisma". Maybe you haven't heard but the Reformed church has had her standards for biblical worship for hundreds of years. It's called the Regulative Principle. So it looks like I'm left with a decision to make about biblical worship.

1. The Charismatics with a miriad of others and their nearly infinite variations of "spiritual" entertainment and behavior.

2. The authoritative biblical "Charisma" standards of Joe k. (to try and keep this in the proper thread, I will add that Joe k alone will decide if there is to be a saxaphone in the church (holy hands) morning service band or of the Pied Piper's musical direction. You are going to be very busy enforcing your perceived Scriptural rules as others just might have other ideas about this.)

3. The regulative principle in which millions of Reformed Christians have found remarkable unity for hundreds of years. (until recently it seems)

I already know which one you have chosen but as for me, I'll take number 3.

BTW, "Blind Bart" is irrelevent to the subject of biblical authority and principle of worship.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Duplicate Post deleted by Pilgrim

Denny, now you are just acting silly. I believe decent and in order, when done to glorify God, and not squelching the congregation is the correct model. THis is about music. And if the instruments are mentioned in the psalms, then who are we, or who is anyone to say differently? People have majored in a minor here.

I have never once called myself the standard. But please tell me if there is anything more boring than a dutchman.

All I said, if you read closely, was to squelch a pew sitter from raising his or her hands, praising God, is pure nonsense.

And you are right, being part of the reformed church, we do not speak of the RP as puritanical presby's do. So I never heard of it until a year ago.

As far as Charasmatics, their antics are the least of their worries.

Give me a solid biblical 5 solas brother, and he can play a lute, a harp, cymbals, and it would not bother me.

Give me an arminian who follows the RP, and he is still as lost.

Joe k,


The idea of an Arminian who follows the RP is an oxymoron.

Joe, we've both had our say and this is obviously going nowhere. It truly is my wish that you not have to travel 400 miles in order not to be "bored" with God's words.

At the risk of being named one of those who "has an experience" I still wish to say something. I have never in my life (and I've witnessed plenty) seen the "Charisma" get even a single foot into the church door without a resulting disaster for that congregation. It is my opinion that first a self-centered and "superior spiritual" behavior followed by emotional and a subtle demand for "better" music is the way they gain entry.

My distaste for those who claim and shout "Give us the Spirit" is echoed by Martin Luther who said to the (Charismatic) Enthusiasts of his day:


This quote is not meant for you but to show you exactly where I'm coming from.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Denny

Do you equate someone raising their hands in worship, with the Charismatic movement?

Tom

I have found that tradition for the sake of tradition can be dead. Many people do not even know why they worship a certain way, rather they do it because that is the way they always have done it.
Ask them what certain things mean in a traditional worship service and they don't know and have never been told.

I have come to believe that it is important to know why we do certain things a certain way. When we don't, is it any wonder that we generate the impression that traditional worship is dead?

In the emotional realm, it is true that we must guard against being attracted to emotionalism. I know all too well how deceptive this realm is. If we are not careful we can believe that the emotion that we are experiencing is God Himself. So much so in fact that when we don't get an emotional high (in some cases low), we somehow believe God isn't pleased, or isn't there.
True worship can cause emotion, that shouldn't be stifled. But we must not be fooled into thinking that emotion is a parameter into how true the worship is.

Tom
A former Charismatic

Tom,


For today, I must say yes. I am very suspicious when people come in the door and start raising their hands in a church that traditionally does not. IMO, it is this subtle (signature) behavior of the Charismatics that eventually leads to the rest of their "merrymaking" and predatory attempt to proselytize the weaker members of the congregation.

They accuse the subject church of being "dead" because of its lack of "gifts" and then especially attack orthodox church doctrine as being unnecessary. The wiser Christian members see this coming but lose out for lack of numbers. Inevitably the more traditional church splits, or worse yet, disappears as a conquest of the "superior spiritual beings".

This is very pronounced in churches that are not reformed with solid and sound Scriptural armor. These disasters are pronounced in un-reformed so-called non-denominational churches. Un-reformed Baptist Churches and the more liberal Lutherans are not far behind as victims.

It goes without saying that another sign of the downfall of the victim church is a new and complete disregard of Scriptural sanity, reverence for the word and orthodoxy in the music. Meaningless and often drum driven music and informality in the worship service becomes more and more an attraction to others. Others, who simply do not want to consider the fact that we are sinners in desperate need of God's redemption and Scriptural guidance. The preaching of the word becomes a minor detail. I've never met a Charismatic that was not also an Arminian.

The Gospel is turned upside down and understood to be only a way to self-help and worldly prosperity (IMO, happy, clappy nothingness).

With all of this horrible and cancerous damage done, and being done, to the churches, the sole Scriptural defense of the Charismatic seems to be: "Where does it say in Scripture that we can't raise our hands?"

There, I said it.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

This is an exact example of poisoning the well Denny. And what is Ironic, is Calvin is called the reformer of the Holy Spirit. Yet, the Holy Spirit is rarely if ever spoken upon in reformed churches these days. Any time a person attending the service, has a God given reaction, they are looked upon as some charismatic fundie.

Since we can not agree on the definition of Charisma, we are worlds apart. When I use the term, I am not speaking of "sign gifts". I am speaking of gracious life, being moved, having joy. And if the Spirit decides to move one to raise their hands, and shout praise God, He will do such, and you or any other starched person can do nothing about it.

Christ said "I came to give you life and to have it abundantly" Joy is another response Denny.

When Christ healed the multitudes, what was their response Denny? They screamed in excitement. "I was blind and now I see" now that is biblical charisma, BiblicaL joy!!!!!

I will again point you to David

14: And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
15: So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
16: And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.
17: And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.
18: And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts.
19: And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house.
20: Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!
21: And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.
22: And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.
23: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.


Michal is you denny.

Ps 95:1 (NAS) O come, let us sing for joy to the Lord, Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation.

Ps 98:4-5 (NAS) Shout joyfully to the Lord, all the earth; Break forth and sing for joy and sing praises. With trumpets and the sound of the horn Shout joyfully before the King, the Lord.

Isa 44:23 (NAS) Shout for joy, O heavens, for the Lord has done it! Shout joyfully, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into a shout of joy, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it; For the Lord has redeemed Jacob And in Israel He shows forth His glory.

1Ch 15:28 (NAS) Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the Lord with shouting, and with sound of the horn, with trumpets, with loud-sounding cymbals, with harps and lyres.

Ezra 3:11 (NAS) They sang, praising and giving thanks to the Lord, saying, "For He is good, for His lovingkindness is upon Israel forever." And all the people shouted with a great shout when they praised the Lord because the foundation of the house of the Lord was laid.

1Sa 4:5-6 (NAS) As the ark of the covenant of the Lord came into the camp, all Israel shouted with a great shout, so that the earth resounded. When the Philistines heard the noise of the shout, they said, "What does the noise of this great shout in the camp of the Hebrews mean?" Then they understood that the ark of the Lord had come into the camp.

Joe k,


So now, according to you, I have no joy? Having never seen or met me, what makes you so sure of this? I have no joy because I hate deceit? I have no joy because I don't wear it on my sleeve to justify myself? Next time before rambling through Scripture you might consider truth.

Well - if what I said before made you angry, here's some more.

A military salute or raised hands are in themselves neutral. This is until one considers who or what agenda is being saluted. As far as I'm concerned, in today's climate of anything goes religiosity your Charismatic friends might as well be raising their fists. I too am angry as I was nearly caught in the self-centered "feel good" Charismatic movement myself. Some of my friends are still laying in their disgusting bed.


I might add, "cursed be the joy".

Denny

Romans 3"22-24

Why am I denying truth? You appear to be squelching Spirit driven response. You appear to be more interested in mere formalities. I use the word appear because on line discussions obviously are not accurate because we cannot see each other Denny. Anyone who would be annoyed at a person shouting to the Lord, Dacing for the Lord, lifting up Holy Hands to praise the Lord is a Michal.


Adopted said:[/i][/b]

A military salute or raised hands are in themselves neutral. This is until one considers who or what agenda is being saluted. As far as I'm concerned, in today's climate of anything goes religiosity your Charismatic friends might as well be raising their fists. I too am angry as I was nearly caught in the self-centered "feel good" Charismatic movement myself. Some of my friends are still laying in their disgusting bed.


"Cursed be the love, and cursed be the unity that takes the Word of God to the stake." Martin Luther


I might add, "cursed be the joy".

Denny

Romans 3"22-24 [/quote]


Cursed be the joy? are you serious? Am I to walk around with a sad serious, pietist countenance at all times? I say NEVER!!!!! Am I to show people that I am reverant? By wearing a long face when I fast? NEVER!!!!!

Because of whatever experience you have had, you now consider any form of emotional response as of the devil!!!! THis is like a reformed smoker Denny. Both extremes are unbiblical. Not once have I espoused some toronto blessing experience. Not once have I spoke of disruptive barking and rolling on the floor laughing as acceptable.

Why are we not to "feel good" about what the Lord has done? Are we to walk around in sackcloth and ashes our whole life like some Jansenist? Like some of the puritans? I want no part of that unbiblical salvation.

Again denny, I will shout from the rooftops "I was blind and NOW I see"

Joe k,

Please stop putting words into my mouth. I clearly implied: "Cursed be the joy that takes the Word of God to the stake". The rest of your post is a testimony to your misreading of mine. The Christian experience is not complete without objective joy.


Where in the world did you get this from? Joy is subjective, and our world believes it can be found in sin! And the Charismatics believe it may be found in heresy!

I've had enough of this.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24