The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum True Worship John 4:23

Hi again GraceAlone, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes it is sad but let each of us follow Christ as He leads us. I have to admit, I would like to be in a Church that does use Psalms in it's worship service but the Church I am in at this time only uses hymns. Glad to know that there are some people like yourself who are understanding and don't condemn those of us who are not able to be in a Church that practices EP.
I once heard of some who refer to my denomination (I'm PCA
by the way) as reformed-lite. lol <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Anyway, I agree about Free Grace being the most important thing.

Blessings.

Hello Jenya and welcome. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" />


I have to say I really agree with you here. I have myself been slowly drawing away from a charasmatic style worship service. My only problem now is trying to convince my wife to move from a neighborhood church that we've been attending for almost 10 years now to a PCA church across town. Keep us in your prayers.

God bless and btw, love your avatar.


Y.B.I.C,

Dave. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/coffee2.gif" alt="" />

Hi jenya,
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> thanks for the input. It is much appreciated.

First I want to say hello! I'm new here and this is my first post. I come from a SBC background and have spent several years as a church instrumentalist, so I most certainly show partiality to that style.

That said, I would point to Ephesians 5:15-21. This doesn't necessarily relate to worship, but it does relate to the corporate body of believers when it states in verse 19 "speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing and making music to the Lord in your heart..." I certainly believe, that as an instrumentalist I am making music in my heart and earnestly worshipping through my playing.

Secondly, the Via Dolorosa may not have it's impact carried forward to the spoken word; but I must say that if you were to ever really hear and ponder such great hymns as Amazing Grace and It is Well with My Soul, I believe that they may have a greater impact on you as spoken word than they ever had when sung from rote.

Peace be to you,
Andy

ForSBCReform welcome!

1. It is Well with My Soul is my favorite hymn.

2. 2. I think G.I.Williamson in “The Westminster confession of Faith” said it better then I could...

“…Thus, for example, in Roman Catholic worship there is a great mass of ceremonies, symbols, and activities which are allowed, and they can be changed or added to on the basis of this spurious principle. Such worship is vain (matt. 15:9). It is false worship because it has no sanction behind it other than the will of man. These “things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship,” but they are “not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh” (Col. 2:23). To worship in the way that we will, withough proof that it is God’s will is to worship our own will rather then God. And what must be vigorously stressed is that there is no other guardian of the purity of true worship when this principle is abandoned, as it has been, and is being, abandoned even by many who claim this Confession. (For example, what command requires the candlelight service so common today? But if such a “ceremony” as this, invented by Protestants, is not ruled out, how can the ceremonies invented by Rome be condemned?) God will not be worshiped ixcept as he wills. And therefore true worship is both institued (prescribed) and limited. There are only two categories: what God has commanded is legitimate, and what God has not commanded is excluded.”

jenya andreyev

And of course, this is where the contention and disagreements originate. Has God prescribed that the Psalms only are to be sung in the N.T. Church? Has God prescribed that the N.T. Church use no instrumentation? In fact, is the "Regulative Principle" to the extent that was taught by the Puritans even something which the Bible actually teaches? That the N.T. Church should sing Psalms is not disputed, at least by the majority of us here. The issue is: Should the N.T. Church sing Psalms exclusively, or should it sing the entire inspired revelation of God and its truths?

The matter is to be resolved from an objective standpoint, i.e., an interpretation of the biblical record and not from any form of paranoia, e.g., "if we allow hymn singing then all kinds of horrid songs will be brought into the Church." That type of argumentation, if applied consistently to all which the Church and individual Christians are responsible before God, then frankly there would be nothing allowed. For men will always take that which is good and either distort it, abuse it or ignore it. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

jenya andreyev,

First, welcome to the forum. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" />

Second, where did I say we should sing that which is unsound. I thought I used the word sound?

Third, where in Scripture does it tell you to avoid instruments in worship?

Fourth, where in Scripture does it say the doctrine of the Psalms is higher doctrine than any other part of Scripture?

I started a new topic on the Regulative principle. Maybe some of ya'll could join it.


God bless,

william

I will not dogmatically defend my above-stated positions, because they are in my head and not necessarily in my heart.

…Should the N.T. Church sing Psalms exclusively, or should it sing the entire inspired revelation of God and its truths?

… I don’t know… I find it hard to pinpoint any other truths which would not be mentioned in Psalms, those 150 chapters pretty much touch all theological doctrines.

First, welcome to the forum.

Thanks, glad to be here!

Second, where did I say we should sing that which is unsound. I thought I used the word sound?

…Probably nowhere. If I have made any allusion of that which is unsound, in no-way-shape-or-form was it directed towards anything prior said.

Third, where in Scripture does it tell you to avoid instruments in worship?

...Probably nowhere. However, my argument is: because using instruments in corporate worship can facilitate idolatry (as others also respond to playing of instruments), playing of instruments can be circumvented since it is not a necessary aspect of worship. Nowhere does it state, “Thou shall use instruments in worship”, and because there is greater temptation of idolatry w/use of instruments, for the sake of departing from that idolatry, instruments can be ousted (as again, since with out them the same quality of worship can be emulated as with them). Do please respond to this point. If I err, I do wish to know where.

Fourth, where in Scripture does it say the doctrine of the Psalms is higher doctrine than any other part of Scripture?

As again… nowhere. In fact, “All of Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness…” 2Tim 3:16, therefore treating any one book of the Bible as being greater then the other becomes erroneous in the long run (eg. A head might be more important then a finger, nevertheless a body missing a finger is no longer a complete body). With that disclaimer, I still wish to know (put forth a challenge, perhaps) of any existing doctrine within Reformed Chrisindome which the book of Psalms does not touch. (Book of Psalms can be found to corroborate all doctrine of scriptures).

Jenya andreyev

“Do not be so quick to throw rocks, my brother, because... …I’m really good at dodgeball.”

I wonder if any Exclusive Psalmnody adherents have ever tried to sing Psalm 88.

Methinks you are asking the wrong question. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And to illustrate my premise, I would ask of you a question based upon your statement above. If the Psalms touch ALL "doctrine within Reformed Christendom", would it not be correct to conclude that the Psalms only are necessary to the exclusion of the other 65 books of the Bible? In short, why did God inspire 66 books if the Psalms are sufficient in and of themselves? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

Correct me if I am wrong, but doctrine cannot be unless it is restated and corroborated from other perspectives in multiple sources. Alone, the book of Psalms states truths, but in conjunction with the entire Scriptures, the book of Psalms states doctrine. Alone, the book of Psalms is sufficient to be true, yet (I would argue) are not efficient. ex. In chapter 22, there is a truthful prophesy of Christ’s death. However, viewing this prophesy in conjunction with all the gospels/ epistles, the entire picture of Christ’s death, which is corroborated over and over, becomes doctrine. So now, Psalms 22 does not only prophesy of Christ’s death, but preaches the doctrine of His death. When I sing psalms, I do not sing it from the point-of-view of Psalms only, but from the point-of-view of the entire scriptures (which the book of Psalms fully corroborates. ie. The full collection of Psalms does not contradict any other portion of the Bible.)

There are many things here to consider.

• 1. Did you know that in the practice of some forms of Satanism they do not use instruments? They do this because of the Bible’s mention of instruments. Thus, to think that idolatry may be avoided because of the lack of the use of instruments is easily dismissed as an invalid argument.
• 2. “No where in the Bible does it say you should communicate the Biblical truth through the use of a computer”—should you be posting? Could this lead to idolatry? The argument is poor.
• 3. Saying instruments are not necessary for worship is also not a valid argument. Are chairs necessary in a church for people to worship? Why do you have pews or chairs?
• 4. The Scripture is full of the use of instruments—even when God speaks!! Consider this handful of verses:

Exodus 19:19
And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

Leviticus 23:24
Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

Numbers 10:10
Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the LORD your God.

2 Samuel 6:15
So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.

1 Chronicles 13:8
And David and all Israel played before God with all their might, and with singing, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cymbals, and with trumpets.

2 Chronicles 5:13
It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;

2 Chronicles 7:6
And the priests waited on their offices: the Levites also with instruments of musick of the LORD, which David the king had made to praise the LORD, because his mercy endureth for ever, when David praised by their ministry; and the priests sounded trumpets before them, and all Israel stood.

I think if you are to do the Word of God justice it would be wise to look up every verse in the Bible and disprove instruments were NEVER used to worship God in the Assembly. Once you see this cannot be done your view may change. In the KJV the word trumpet is used 104 times, harp 86 times, timbrels 5 times, cymbals 15 times, instruments of musick 8 times. Were ANY of these used to worship the LORD your God?

jadeitedrake0,

Thanks for replying and making an extremely important point in my behalf. The point being, that the singing of the Psalms only is insufficient to worship God because they lack the fullness of meaning in and of themselves of the truth of God's redemption in Christ Jesus. One must have the N.T. to understand the Psalms. This is a fundamental axiom of biblical hermeneutics, i.e., the O.T. is interpreted by the N.T. as the N.T.'s foundation is built upon the O.T.

If the Psalms were sufficient in themselves, there would be no need for the New Testament. The truths found in the Psalms are "shadows" and "types" of the coming of Jesus Christ and His life, death, resurrection and the salvation He secured. It is only in the N.T. that we learn what what was hinted at in the Psalms; in fact in the entire O.T. When you reverse this hermeneutical principle, you are violating the principle of progressive revelation and the Scripture's own hermeneutical principle; i.e., "grammatico-historico". In plain terms, one is guilty of eisogesis when the fuller revelation is forced back into the a text which God inspired to be a "type" of that fuller revelation.

The O.T. and the N.T. compliment each other, but they are not to be so combined that they lose their uniqueness and purpose which God the Spirit designed. God is a Trinity; 3 persons in the one God. They are inseparable but they are not so related that they lose their individual identities as "persons". Each had a part in our salvation and those parts are to be understood and appreciated in relation to the Person Who accomplished their part. But to separate any of the three parts from the others destroys the whole.

Thus, I say, we should without question sing the Psalms and the doctrines and experimental realities which are revealed in them. But likewise, we should also sing the doctrines and truths in Genesis through Revelation as the whole of God's inspired Word is His revelation and who are we to dismiss any part of it as irrelevant or worse yet, to commit idolatry if we do?

In His Grace,

Pilgrim answered you definitively IMHO, but I must ask you: Is not your statement above a contradiction of Psalm only worship? Psalm ONLY is Psalm ONLY. If you are thinking from the point-of-view of the entire scriptures when you are worshiping why cannot I do the same from the N.T.? Why can I not do the same from the truths of doctrine expressed throughout the Scripture?