The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Regulative principle

What makes 'orchestras, pipe organs, etc...' more 'worshipful' than a piano, guitar, bass guitar and drum set ?

OS_X,

First off... to the Board.

FYI, Joe is currently in Germany on a study/vacation. So, it is doubtful that he will be replying to your question for at least a couple of weeks. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> In the meantime, perhaps there will be others who will jump in here with an answer.

In His Grace,

Thanks, Pilgrim. I hope to get into a few dozen good convos here.

I ask the question because my take on it is that what some people interpret as 'appropriate' (music style, instrments) is usually a cultural adaptation and not fixed by scripture. I think we should differentiate between a cultural expression of the RPW and making our cultural expression of the RPW the only 'right' interpretation of it.

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. Could you condescend to this and expand on that a bit?

What I do believe is that Scripture teaches that all that we do, and particularly in worship, which must be done in "spirit" and "truth", must be to the glory of God. And one glorifies God when one reflects on His person, e.g., His attributes. This principle has definite influence upon what is "acceptable" in worship; both private and corporate.

Have you read any of the articles on worship found on The Highway? You can access them by clicking here: Ecclesiology: The Doctrine of the Church. When you scroll down the page, you will see the various headings, for music, worship, etc.

ENJOY!!

PS: What is the meaning of "OS_X"? Does it have anything to do with MAC computers?

In His Grace,

Sure! (pardon me for coming back 6 months later...LOL). I believe that while the elements of the RPW should be present and adhered to in every worship gathering every Sunday morning, we must not confuse the cultural expression of them with the thing itself. For example, one person mentioned that they preferred more 'worshipful' instruments - what makes a pipe organ more 'worshipful' than a piano or a full band and a 3-4 member praise team leading the congregation in song ? Music led by pipe organ (or organ, period) is a reflection of the culture of the 1600's and 1700's. All of the music looked/sounded like that during that time period. It was what the culture of the time had developed.

I believe our music should look and sound 'modern' (within limits, of course). We are living in the 21st century and not the 17th.

Likewise, the style in which the music is sung should not be a major issue, provided that the CONTENT of the songs is theologically sound and that the songs are sung with reverence. A great example of this is Bob Kauflin of Sovereign Grace Ministries. I got to talk to him for about 10 seconds this morning (he had a plane to catch) at Covenant Life Church over in Gaithersburg. He has taken many older hymns with explicitly reformed content and added new melodies to them (you can head to their website and pick up a copy of one of their CD's), as well as wrote many new hymns/praise songs which get sung on Sunday morning (and other times) with explicitly reformed content. You won't find a more reverent bunch of folks who realize that all to God in Christ they owe than these folks. And it doesn't make them quiet.... but it makes them raise their hands and voices aloud in praise and adoration of the one true God who took on flesh and died for them.


Yes. As a matter of fact, there's some 'questioning' I have on one of the articles - the one on evaluating rock n' roll states:


I disagree with this statement. Everyone isn't going to like the same type of music. I personally think some music sung in churches is stiff, sterile, emotionless and has no real depth to it beyond the words. What criteria are you using to determine what music is 'lovely' ? Would you badger your kids into 'well, this music is lovely because I say it is and that's final', though they may protest that music is dry as a desert ? We are talking about the God of the Universe who gave Himself for me. You're telling me that the music celebrating this great truth is dull, stale, sterile and lifeless ?

A great example is the lyrics from Cruz Cordero - one of the former members of the hip-hop gospel group, the Cross Movement. Cruz is a Calvinist and his lyrics were/are very Biblical and explicitly calvinistic. At the end of any of his songs, I can, with a clean conscience, head still boppin' back and forth from the beat, say 'Praise the Lord for that song!'. But hip-hop isn't going to have a 'good report' among both young and old. Some older folks just don't like it - it's not their preference. What the author has done is insert his personal preference into the text of scripture as the criteria for judging what is 'good' and 'not good'.

I believe it is unwise and unbiblical to force one 'style' of music on all believers, simply due to your personal preference (hence my above comments on the RPW).


Yep. No virii in four years and only ONE trojan horse, built-in firewall protection that most hackers couldn't break with a month's straight work (24-7), access to all major software titles, a secure, faster and more stable OS than WinAnything and even when Leghor.....er...Longhorn finally comes out, it'll still be 3-5 years behind anything that gets put out from Cupertino, CA.

*waits for the first few PCs to start imitating the iMac G5, just like everything else....*

Just curious. RECUSA.

Is that the Reformed Episcopalian Church?

Brother Ed

Yup. But I have fellowshipped in other churches as well. There are other denominations I could call home and be just as happy.


God bless,

william

Hey OS X, I did not read that quote from the article in context; if it is stating that we can listen to "christian" music only, which it seems to be saying, then i would disagree as well. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/peace.gif" alt="" /> ...i love how the label on this little guy is "peace" when he clearly is not giving a "peace" sign but more of a "rock on" sign. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/peace.gif" alt="" />

He's more arguing for a particular style of music. He doesn't like music that sounds like Rock (in this specific article). But he's also arguing against listening to anything else than Christian music as well.

I wonder how many people he can relate to and establish relationships with if he doesn't know what's going on in the culture.....

OS_X,

I think your criticism fails in a major point, and that is whether music is morally neutral. An important component to the argument against rock music in the church is that rock music itself, regardless of lyrics, is immoral. I'm not sure exactly where I stand on the issue, as to my mind neither side has adequately addressed it. But I know that the argument for changing the music of the church that relies on changing cultural norms is not sound. The church should not change simply because the world does, especially in a matter as central as worship music.

Happy New Year to you all!

I've been enjoying this thread and, particularly, the contributions of OS_X to the discussion.

Regarding your post, Kyle, I wonder if those folks in the 18th and 19th centuries who wrote sound biblical hymns to the tunes of old saloon/bar songs would have considered those pieces of music -- regardless of the lyrics -- as being immoral (because they were essentially saloon/bar songs)! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Eeeeeek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

In Christ,
Ted

What hymns do you know that were written to the tunes of popular drinking songs? A "bar tune" is something else entirely from a drinking song, I should note. It refers to the structure of the song, not to its place of origin. Neither Luther nor the Wesleys used the tunes drinking songs in the composition of their hymns, as is often claimed of them.

CovenantInBlood said:



Really?? Wow!! now if this is true, then I've come under the same false information that Ted has. I have heard that too about some of the hymns written to bar/saloon tunes!! (unfortunately I don't remember which ones though)

Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm honestly in some shock. I didn't know there were churches out there that purposely do not use instruments in church!!

How do you respond to these verses in scripture?

1 Chronicles 15:16
"David told the leaders of the Levites to appoint their brothers as singers to sing joyful songs, accompanied by musical instruments: lyres, harps and cymbals."

Psalm 150:3-5
"Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute, praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals."

OS_X said:


I agree with OS-X that the issue of content of songs, hymns being theologically important is key.

My opinion with the drums, guitars, etc. is that I'm not necessarily against them, but in my own observances in my church (which we have the guitars and drums, etc.) is that I get the feeling that people are into the "beat" of the music itself. I could be wrong because I really don't know. I think that's probably the problem some people have out there with these instruments because one could easily be coming to church to be "entertained" by the music. Also the content in some of these songs today is terrible. I have been really questioning what I'm singing at my own church in the last year and some of the songs or parts I won't even sing anymore because they are not theologically correct. We do have a decent hymn here and there that is refreshing. I personally miss hymns with a piano. I grew up with mostly hymns at my home church. Well those are just my thoughts.