The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Trinity Doctrine

If the Son is the same Person as the Father and the Holy Spirit, how can the Father have existed eternally, the Son existed eternally, and the Spirit existed eternally?

Also, to deny the Trinity is to make nonsense of the Atonement. How can one properly understand Jesus Christ satisfying the wrath of God the Father if they are not two distinct Persons (two Persons, NOT two Gods)?

Plus, consider the baptism of Jesus. How could the Father have spoken of the Son if the Father was the exact same Person as the Son? And if Jesus was the same Person as the Holy Spirit, please explain to me why Jesus said He was GOING to the Father and that He was SENDING the Spirit?

Similarly, how can Jesus speak of, in John 6, people coming to Jesus after haven been GIVEN to Him BY the Father? Plus, when you read Ephesians 1, you see how each Person of the Trinity works together in the salvation of God's elect.

Not to mention the problems a denial of the Trinity poses to Christ's prayers in the Garden of Gethsemane.

As Hank Hanegraaff once summed up, the Trinity is "one What and three Whos."


In James White's excellent book The Forgotten Trinity, he goes through numerous passages of Scripture defending and explaining the importance of the Trinity. I would highly recommend you read this.

In regards to the word "Trinity," the word "Bible" is not in Scripture either. So, please be consistent and, should you not wish to use the word Trinity, don't use the word Bible either.

Also, the early church, in spite of your denial of this, defended the full Deity and full humanity of Jesus Christ. In fact, the Creed that Pilgrim posted says the following:


The Nicene Creed says:


And lest you are put off by the word Catholic in these creeds, the term does not mean Roman Catholic but merely means "universal"...that which all Christians are united in believing.

It appears that you have gotten much false information about the doctrine of the Trinity. For example, Matthew 13:33 is not a text that anyone I know has ever used to defend the Trinity. The study of the Trinity, rather, incorporates whole passages and the whole of Scripture. The whole of Scripture points to one God in three Persons.

This article may be helpful. Also, please read the articles and/or books we've mentioned.

Another book, which I just started reading, and cannot put down, is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: Relationships, Roles, and Relevance by Bruce Ware.

By the way, what church do you belong to? Perhaps we would better know where you are coming from.

The WCF states, "In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son." The Athanasian Creed states, "Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; the father infinite, the Son infinite, and the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet not three eternals but one eternal, as also not three infinites, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one infinite. ...but the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Trinity in Unity and the Unity in Trinity is to be worshipped. He therefore who wills to be in a state of salvation, let him think thus of the Trinity."

However, this means little to anyone unless they understand what the term "person," "substance," "godhead," etc. mean. You fail to understand what many theological terms mean when we use them in their proper doctrinal context (2 Tim 4:3; Tit 1:9, 2:1, 2:10). The history of the development of the doctrine will assist you in (1) understanding the terms used, and (2) to more clearly define the true meaning of the Trinity. Without this background and understanding you will be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine (Eph 4:14). Please read the book I suggested to you above.

Who is saying that Jesus is ONLY a messenger? However, He was a messenger was He not? Did He not give the message of salvation? Was He not the messenger of that which was to come? Was not Jesus a Prophet—bearing a message?

If the Holy Spirit had to be sent by Christ, that entails TWO separate people (the sender and the one sent). Jesus prayed to the Father, not Himself, etc., etc., etc. The Scripture is replete with examples that there are THREE persons in the godhead, however they are yet ONE.

Yes, it actually is possible to give MORE credence to one person of the godhead over another to the detriment of the believer. To over emphasize ANY one person of the godhead over another in one’s overall theological belief is to devalue and under emphasize the other persons of the Trinity. It is sin. This is why the oneness movement and several others that emphasize “mostly” the Holy Spirit, or “mostly” Christ, or “mostly” the Father are in error and teach heresy. Indeed, to stress the importance of JESUS above the FATHER is to declare that the FATHER is less than JESUS.

What’s more by denying the THREENESS of the godhead you declare the Bible to be a lying book. Did the person of the Father speak to person of Jesus? Jesus was not a ventriloquist when He and others heard the words, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him” (Matt 17:5, cf. 3:17). Jesus was baptized, His Father spoke! The Holy Spirit descended, etc., etc., etc.

But, if they are ONE “only” and not three persons, as you claim above, then how could one glorify the other? There would simply be “no other” to be glorified for they are ONE “only” (according to your philosophy).

Don’t wonder, your conception of God is incomplete (rather one-sided <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />). One "should" biblically maintain the fullness of God in each person of the Trinity.

Oh contrare.... Jesus Christ did not always exist so says God's infallible Word:

John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made."

And then of this "Word" (Grk: Logos), it is written:

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth."

God the "Logos" is eternal and and it is He Who created all things. And, the "Word became flesh (took on human flesh), cf. Phil 2:5-11. And who was this person who became? It was none other than the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man; God incarnate. Jesus Christ is a historical figure Who came into existence in time and space. Yet in the one person of the Lord Christ there existed two persons; the "Word", aka: the Son of God and man. But because of the inseparable relationship that exists between the two persons and the nature of the incarnation, it can be rightly said that the Lord Jesus Christ is divine. Yet we attribute eternality and aseity to the Son only, for the human nature of Christ was corporeal.

Yes, without any reservation whatsoever. You are confounding the three persons and speaking illogically. For as J_Edwards clearly pointed out, albeit briefly, the Father spoke of the Son and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him. Jesus Christ prayed to the Father. And, He said He would send another comforter in His absence after He would ascend to the Father beside Whom He would sit, etc. To deny such things is if nothing else to contradict the basic law of "non-contradiction", i.e., it is impossible for something to be and not be at the same time.

Let me finish by putting for this simple challenge. If you boil water in a vacuum, the result is that the original state of water, i.e., liquid, changes into a gas (vapor) and then freezes (solid). The result is that you have one element, H²O existing in three forms simultaneously, liquid, gas, and solid. If it is therefore possible for one of the most basic elements on earth to exist in three forms yet remain one element, how much more feasible is it that the God Who created all things by just the word of His mouth to exist as One God yet consist of three persons?

In His Grace,

J...

Briefly... while I catch up and consider your post, as well as Semper's (which asks many questions)

My question: Have you considered comments I posted concerning the Spiritual Focus of the creed posted by Pilgrim? AND Especially concerning the lack of emphasis of WHO is important and what is important to know as being the point of Christianity... You can't tell me that it is just a statement. "This is what a Christian must believe"... what about 'the doing of good things... etc' So that part maybe was not so inspired?

Please?

-(thank you)
-Kathy

1) You must understand the purpose/intent of the Athanasian Creed, in fact ALL of the Creeds and Confessions written by the Church and in doing so, that should satisfactorily answer your question. In regard to the Athanasian Creed, in particular, it was written to combat the influx of Arianism, i.e., the heretical teaching which denied the "faith once delivered unto the saints" and which doctrine the Church had always believed. In other words, the Creed simply put into writing as an official declaration which was previously unwritten but believed. You will find that most of the Creeds and Confessions came about for the exact same reason.

2) The Athanasian Creed therefore isn't usurping or substituting the Gospel as that which ONLY be believed unto salvation. Rather it is stating that one of the most basic doctrines/elements OF the Gospel is a right understanding of God. For how else can one be in a right relationship with the One True God if one is believing in a false god? This is something which the apostle Paul warned about when he wrote:

2 Corinthians 11:3-4 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or [if] ye receive a different spirit, which ye did not receive, or a different gospel, which ye did not accept, ye do well to bear with [him]."

As you can clearly see, there are other/false Jesus', spirits and/or gospels which men will teach and embrace; none of which can save. The "Jesus" you are espousing is NOT the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible, which the Holy Spirit inspired men to write.

3) Since you reject the very nature of the economic Trinity; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, you of necessity also have to reject the incarnation of God in the person of Jesus Christ, Who was fully God and fully man, i.e., one person with two distinct natures. God wasn't born of the virgin Mary, Jesus didn't create the universe, God didn't die on the cross, etc. And these errors were also dealt with in another document named "The Chalcedon Creed".

[color:"blue" size="4"]The Chalcedon Creed

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

So, perhaps now you can understand why the Athanasian Creed says that to deny the Trinity is to deny salvation, for to deny the Trinity is to reject the very God Who is spoken of in the Gospel and Who saves. God the Holy Spirit, when He regenerates a sinner's soul, creating within him/her a new nature; a God-inclined disposition, also changes one's ability to comprehend the very nature of God so that the faith, also created in one's soul, reaches out to the One True God in the person of Jesus Christ. Consequently, that same "born-again" sinner, with the new disposition, desires to please God by walking in righteousness, confessing their sins and exalting God in all that they think, say and do. A sincere belief in a false God cannot save. And surely all the "good works" one could muster are fruitless if they are done for the benefit of a "god" who doesn't even exist. In fact, to do so only serves to add to one's condemnation.

In His Grace,

Dear Pilgrim, J Edwards and Semper,

This is (my) recap, comments... (and after this... it’s all I really can say.) I’ll read any rebuttals... but today at least, I can’t imagine what else I can say. My intention and desire is ONLY for the TRUTH. Disagree, of course, if you wish/will. It benefits no one for a circular ‘debate’ to ensue on this (either.)


***And I want to Clarify that I am NOT a ‘One-ness Pentecostal’ (NOT)... who at first glance appear as monotheists... but break down the ‘One’ God into modes of manifestation... Old Covenant, New, and Pentecost/Holy Spirit... thus tounges and latter rain, etc. I do not know of ANY Denomination that states ‘ONE’ (and means it) that Does NOT Deny Jesus Christ, by defining him as NOT the Father. So... the Denomination I am in is only one of other scattered believers (who knows how many... and where they’ve been, etc.) who have come to the same conclusion IN SPIRIT.... That Jesus Christ is FULLY and Completely God. ***


Kathy said:

Pilgrim Answered: You must understand the purpose/intent of the Athanasian Creed, in fact ALL of the Creeds and Confessions written by the Church (**** are you serious??? ****) and in doing so, that should satisfactorily answer your question. [color:"0000FF"]Not satisfactory.... but it just gets thicker... and curiouser by the minute. Were they inspired by the Holy Spirit? NO! ... and WHO was it written by? What else were these godly men teaching? ...and it was Constantine who initiated this be done. And the faith taught? Works and obedience and many heresies (under the LIE that they were given authority by “God” in an apostolic succession of deceit, not Faith by Grace. And you said “you must understand the purpose/intent”... I do, it was UNITY... as in ‘catholic’ (universal.) AND... it was POLITICAL. When Rome decided “if you can’t beat ‘em (literally) join ‘em.” How does Rome solve a disagreement? One word ‘heretic.’[/color]

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall ADD unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

“the Cathechism”. Tradition, Philosophy and the Doctrines of men.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity DOTH ALREADY WORK: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

Pilgrim said:

[color:"0000FF"]The statements previously quoted in that thread... show Clearly that the Athanasian Creed utterly lacks scriptural focus WITH its very WRONG THEOLOGY -understanding of Salvation. THIS IS A HUGE STATEMENT... It cannot be discounted.... as these statements were indeed put down on paper and they reveal the LACK. Paul would not have written this. THIS CANNOT BE AN INSPIRED DEED (yes deed). No word should be added. You may say no word was added; “this is a statement”. This IS GOSPEL to YOU! This uninspired Creed is INFALLIBLE TRUTH says many. AND MANY are DECEIVED. It IS Denying that IN Jesus Christ IS the Fullness of the “Godhead”. You say No... But this is entirely the case... AND BELOW IS THE OBJECTION OF THE TRINITY DOCTRINE:[/color]

Jhn 14:10 Believest THOU NOT that I am in the Father, and the Father IN ME? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:(because he can’t... he is ‘man’) but the FATHER THAT DWELLETH IN ME, he doeth the works.

[color:"0000FF"]Question: Is that the Father, or a (separate) Holy Spirit of the Father... or the Holy Spirit?[/color]

And the one that CAN and Does speak of Jesus is the Father (WHO IS Spirit) the Same Holy Father (Spirit) that dwelleth in Jesus. The same Holy Spirit of God that appeared and spoke to Moses in the Burning Bush... that descended as a dove.. that moved across the waters of the earth and said “Let there be Light.” That overshadowed Mary... Yet Jesus is the Son of the Father... Yet conceived by the Holy Spirit. (2 persons)

I do NOT discount nor dishonor the relationship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.... The only way to know “THEM” (who are not ‘them’ but ‘I AM’ ) is IN JESUS. Can you know the Father Separately from Christ? NO. Holy Spirit? NO. SHEW us the FATHER? The distinction of Father/Son is Flesh/Spirit... We become born of Spirit in Jesus Christ... born anew OF HIM... and HE becomes our Father in that Birth Anew of Spirit. He was the First Fruit. He came as weak flesh, yet God (ONE Holy Spirit of God IN FLESH)... and submitted AS FLESH... subordinated to His Father... as ‘Son’ and that is the distinction of Father/Son... they are ONE in Holy Spirit. ***Was the Father crucified?Semper asks... NO, the Son was crucified... the Son ‘incarnate Word’ of the One God... who bore the distinction ‘SON’... as the HOLY SPIRIT OF Almighty God Came in the Flesh.... AND the FLESH died... (and that UNBLEMISHED FLESH and Life suffered the ABUSE and Bore the Judgment of our Sins FOR US) and the HOLY SPIRIT in Christ Jesus was not killed.... And WHO RAISED JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD?


for they tore down the temple of God (Jesus Christ , John 2:21 But HE spake of the temple of his body. ) and on the third day He raised it and ascended to Sion where even He is the Temple therein

Jhn 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days [/b]I WILL RAISE IT UP.[/b]

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and GOD THE FATHER, who raised him from the dead;)

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER,

Mar 8:29 And he saith unto them, But WHOM say ye that I am?

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

[color:"0000FF"]And in this JESUS CHRIST is OUR FATHER... the Holy Spirit of the FATHER... ONE HOLY GOD. THE ONE (in the Flesh) who yet said... Before Abraham was, I AM. This is the One who was crucified. THE IAM (in flesh). Do you pray to The Father, and then the Son... Do you pray to the Holy Spirit, also?[/color]


Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED Wonderful, Counsellor, THE mighty God, The everlasting FATHER, The Prince of Peace.

Are your thoughts a separate person? Your words a separate person? Your breath.. a person? Essence... stuff... with their own office of autonomy? Do you send your words places and they continue an autonomous interchange? You can send them in a letter... and in that sense they continue... but they do not dialogue further without the rest of you (ALL of you) engaged.


John 8:58 – Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM

Exd 3:14 And GOD said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus SHALT THOU SAY unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Jhn 6:48 I AM that bread of life.

Psa 118:26 Blessed [be] HE that cometh in the NAME of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

[color:"FF0000"] Jn: 8:24: I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins.[/color]

John 4:23 - 24 “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the FATHER seeketh such to worship him.GOD [is] A SPIRIT: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

2 Cor 3:17 Now [color:"FF0000"]THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT:[/color] and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty

Jhn 14:17 The SPIRIT of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it [/color:FF0000]SEETH HIM NOT[/color], neither knoweth him: but ye know him ; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless (future - in Spirit not in Flesh): [color:"FF0000"]I will come to you.[/color] (Jesus... said... ‘I” will come to you.)

1 John 1:3 – That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Matthew 1:18 – “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.”


[color:"FF0000"]CREED states: He was begotten ‘of the substance of’ the Father before time[/color] WHEN? IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD! THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA. I AM.

Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

[color:"FF0000"]Job 38:28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?[/color]

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


[color:"0000FF"]To deny that Jesus Christ IS Fully God... Completely God... Father/Son/Holy Spirit is Anti-Christ. This is exactly what the Trinity doctrine does. I asked “Is it possible to consider Jesus Christ too important in ‘the God-head’ ?” (Godhead, BTW is a mistranslation Greek/Platonic term that means ‘gods’... the correct translation IS ‘fully God.’) Pilgrim, you said... “YES.” noting distinction, exception of ‘co-equality’ of persons. Sorry, Pilgrim... “co-equality” of these “persons” of the One Lord God is NOT scripture. PROVE IT, Any of you![/color]


Act 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased NOT to teach and preach JESUS Christ.

Isa 52:6 Therefore MY people SHALL KNOW MY NAME: therefore [they shall know] in that day that I [am] HE[b] that DOTH SPEAK: behold, [it is] [b]I.

Eze 36:23 AND I WILL SANCTIFY MY GREAT NAME, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen SHALL KNOW that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

Eze 39:7 So will I MAKE MY HOLY NAME KNOWN in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my HOLY NAME any more: and the heathen SAHLL KNOW that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

[color:"0000FF"]*********** tetragrammaton? think again. ************[/color]


Phl 2:10 That at the [color:"FF0000"]name of JESUS[/color] EVERY knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

Rev 15:4]WHO SHALL NOT FEAR THEE, O Lord, and glorify [color:"FF0000"]THY NAME[/color]? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before THEE; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but [color:"FF0000"]NOW IS MADE MANIFEST[/color] to his saints:

Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in [color:"FF0000"]THE NAME of THE LORD JESUS[/color].)

Act 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee [color:"FF0000"]IN THE NAME of Jesus Christ[/color] to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

1Cr 5:4 [color:"FF0000"]IN THE NAME of our Lord Jesus Christ[/color], when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, THOUGHT IT NOT robbery to be equal with God:

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

[color:"0000FF"]* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

AND.... With this very insistance of “TRINTY” and co-equality (meaning to deny Jesus is indeed FULLY GOD the ALMIGHTY)

We wind up with the EXACT same Anti-Christ “IN SUBSTANCE / ESSENCE ” as below:[/color]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

...Below quoted... from an anti-Christ web site (brought to you from the other side.. yet the SAME SIDE of the very same anti-Christ


Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 3:13- The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our Fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up,... [/quote]


I fully believe in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ... Semper didn’t understand WHY I brought up THIS parable... As what it has to do showing up here (in this discussion)... I’ll post it again:


[color:"0000FF"]Mt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and HID in THREE MEASURES OF MEAL, till the whole was LEAVENED. [/color]


Even though I know where you stand.. it would benefit your understanding, if you haven’t already done so, to read “The Two Babylons” by Alexander Hislop (who BTW was a Trinitarian) It can be found at:[/b]
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/babylons/

None of us here believe you are purposely attempting to deceive us. The problem is one must first be able to discern between truth and error to express truth itself. Please don’t confuse the fact of attempting to be truthful, with truth itself.

Does your Church have a web site? If not, PLEASE give us the DENOMINATIONAL name. It will assist us in determining the “philosophical” direction you are coming from and to more fully answer your concerns. At times you sound like a JW and others an Oneness. At times you embrace Modalism and at others you don’t. Then there is your Patripassianism. It is rather confusing to be honest. To add fuel to the fire there are some similarities you seem to have with SDA, Ellen G. White and others, as well.

Kathy, were Christians of yesteryear ever inspired by the Holy Spirit? Could they by the Spirit of all-mighty God even have been more educated in the things of Scripture then you or I? While their writings are “not” Scripture (and should not be held to the same level as Scripture), this does not mean that they are not truthful “at all.”

These men were NOT attempting to ADD to Scripture, but clearly interpret Scripture. Paul said there would not only be false doctrines of men (Eph 4:14; 1 Tim 6:3, etc.), but good doctrines (developed by man through the Holy Spirit; Deut 32:2; Job 11:4; Prov 4:2; Rom 16:17; 1 Tim 1:3, 1:10, 6:1; 2 Tim 4:3; Tit 1:9, 2:1, 7, 10; Heb 6:1) as well. In addition, there are good and necessary consequences developed from the study of Scripture, which are themselves “truth” as well.

To insinuate and attempt to justify that “every” Church confession and creed (etc.) that was ever developed is “heretical” (some are) is to deny that the Holy Spirit operated at all in the early Church. It literally denies God’s sovereignty in His Church. To think that ONLY Kathy has it all down right (?) is indeed puzzling; Have we had a period of silence from Christ to Kathy?

Jesus is also fully human. Is God the Father fully human? Is God the Holy Spirit fully human? Did God the Father DIE for you on Calvary? (A) If not, then there are different persons in the Godhead, (B) if so, then the universe was without "the God" of it for a period of time ("God is dead," Nitsch)? Which proposition is true, A or B? Pick one and defend it <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

Where?

The concept of the Godhead (Trinity) is evident in Scripture as early as the first chapter of the book of Genesis. The Hebrew word Elohim (translated "God" in Genesis 1:1) actually indicates more than one divine personality. This same plural form is used over 2,500 times in the OT. According to the Hebrew, in the account of creation recorded in the book of Genesis God speaks of the plurality of His own Person (Gen 1:26-27). Would you care to disprove the Hebrew plurality of the term? Which lexicon supports your view of the term?

Hislop’s articles have been discussed here before and found wanting. He exalts numerology above Scripture, etc.

Well I'm no different than most everyone else here in that I am most <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> by this reply; like most all the other replies you have made in regard to the doctrine of the Trinity. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

I will be brief here so as to try and focus on but a couple of items which are fundamental and need clarification, at least on my part:

1) You categorically deny that you hold to the heresy of the Oneness Pentecostals who teach a form of "Modalism"; i.e., they make the Holy Spirit the only god who has appeared in three forms. Yet you wrote that Jesus Christ is "Completely God... Father/Son/Holy Spirit". To me, this is saying exactly what the Oneness Pentecostals are teaching with the one exception being you substitute the Jesus Christ for their Holy Spirit. It is true that the "Godhead" [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] dwelt in the Lord Christ bodily. (Col 2:9) But this doesn't mean that Jesus Christ IS "Father, Son and Holy Spirit". The SON took on human flesh (incarnation), not the Father and not the Holy Spirit.

2) It is also true that in the person of Jesus Christ there are two "natures"; one divine and one human, for God the Son became man. (John 1:14) Thus it is the divine "SON" who is eternal God and not the historical Jesus Christ who is eternal God. The eternal SON became man, i.e., He took upon Himself a human body and soul in addition to His own being. (Phil. 2:6-8; cf. Chalcedon Creed)

3) If as you say, that Jesus Christ is "Father/Son/Holy Spirit", then who was it that spoke at His baptism? (Matt 3:17) And what/who was it that descended upon Him like a dove at His baptism? (Matt 3:16) Did Jesus Christ thus pray to himself when He prayed to the Father? Wouldn't this make Him nothing short of delusional?

4) Lastly, could you try and explain to me what/who is the Father? the Son? and the Holy Spirit? And further, what if any, is the relationship between the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Jesus of Nazareth? Perhaps if I put it to you this way:

(a) Is the Father the Son?
(b) Is the Father the Holy Spirit?
(c) Is the Father Jesus Christ?
(d) Is the Son the Holy Spirit?
(d) Is the Son Jesus Christ?
(e) Is the Holy Spirit Jesus Christ?
(f) Is Jesus Christ the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit? If yes.... what is the relationship of those persons/things to each other? Are "Father/Son/Holy Spirit" simply names? are they persons? are they gods?

Dear J Edwards,

I had started a long reply... First I went out to the sites... to paste the other religions/philosophies you saw similarities with. But there are only so many combinations of interpretations... and it’s messy. I’m not saying I won’t honor the question, with an answer... but you will get a very long answer.... after which, I truly believe you won’t be satisfied.

I’m not in a denomination. Do I think Christians of Yesteryear had the Holy Spirit... any of them?... YES, I do.

RE: TRUTH... Well of course to what you said... “Good intentions, and bad directions pave the way to hell”


I read that Constantine was praying for guidance and to know the Truth... to the Christian God... for answers. He had a dream... to build a golden spear, with wreath and the initial ‘P’ with an ‘X’... and this would be for a sign... to conquer in Christ. I’m sure he thought the dream was from God. The Word says that the Lord... HIMSELF... DECEIVES! Yes! I didn’t know it. He absolutely does and will... SENDS EVIL even! Delusion! He does it all/allows, etc.

Not in attempt to “prove” anything... may I back up and ask you how you understand some of the verses that I posted... such as Jesus said He is the I AM... that He said He would raise this temple up in 3 days. That He was the one that blinded Paul, spoke to him. Back in the days of Moses... wouldn’t this have been the Father? (that I don’t think that I’m leaving ‘anybody’ out.) But I sincerely wonder if the Trinity ‘focus’ does.

Back to these Christians in history... and ‘Kathy.... any of them saved? ANY?’ How many of us... spend that much time thinking, contemplating the verbage, etc of the doctrine? i.e., is Jesus co-equal with the Father? or rather Jesus is Lord.... and that he reveals the Father.

[color:"0000FF"]Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him].

Hbr 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.[/color]

J, Consider this....

[color:"0000FF"]1Cr 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [have ye] not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


1Cr 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.


1Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.


2Cr 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:


2Cr 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. [/color]


Today I am thinking that the Trinity doctrine messes us up in the “revelation that the mystery of the ages is manifest in Jesus Christ” ... and the Trinity doctrine is supposed to do that... (by divine design) Please don’t quote me on that. Thus the parable about the 3 loaves and leaven.... Find Jesus. (Would you be willing to take a stab at this parable)

Kathy, this has been done repeatedly by others here. Maybe reading something by John Owen will help shed some light on your thoughts. A brief Declaration and Vindication of The Doctrine of the Trinity. This is one of his easier works to comprehend and apply.

As to your so called “hidden knowledge” in the parable of Mat 13:33, PLEASE explain your commentary to us of what it entails … Inquiring minds desire to know?

I wasn’t aware that Jesus was lost. Last I heard Jesus (the 2nd Person of the Trinity) ascended to the right hand of God the Father Almighty (the 1st Person of the Trinity). To assist you in this endeavor I understand that Jesus (the 2nd Person of the Trinity) has sent the Holy Spirit (the 3rd Person of the Trinity) to lead in your search. I hope you find Him, or better yet, He finds you.

Pilgrim

Kathy said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't what Kathy said a form of Modelism? Yet she said she isn't a Modelist
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

J Edwards,

I have read the Owens article, and I have one question... A simple yes or no is all I am asking. Why I’m asking: All I want to do is know your answer. I don’t wish to dispute it nor take up your time any further.

When the Lord of the OT, was asked his name, He said “I AM”... He also said, “I will make my Holy name known.”

Do you believe these verses are revealed in Jesus Christ, as “The Name above all Names”

Thank you,
-Kathy

Modalism (not of the ship building type), yes, and a related issue, Patripassianism (the belief that God the Father and Son are simply different aspects of God). The implication of this belief is that God the Father suffered on the cross. It is accepted primarily by some Pentecostal groups, sometimes referred to as "Oneness Pentecostals" or "Jesus Only" Pentecostals, among them; The Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus, United Pentecostal Church, The Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, The Apostolic Church of the Faith in Jesus Christ, The Bible Way Churches of Our Lord Jesus Christ World Wide, The Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ, The Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith, The Apostolic Overcoming Holy Church of God. All heretical.

Jesus was not yet incarnate when these phrases were used in the OT. We must remember that "The Son of God” (John 8:58) took upon Him a perfect human nature. It was not till after the incarnation that Jesus affirmed that He became "the Son of Man" (Matt 8:20). As the WCF states,

In context;

God’s renown, His recognition in all the earth will be the positive result of the defeat of Gog … Here there is a recognition of the holiness of God’s name and character. However, did you take note of the term, YHWH (Jehovah)? Yahweh is neither singular or plural in the Hebrew. But why, if God is only “one” as you assume? Why isn’t it singular? Doesn’t God know Hebrew? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" /> The totality of God’s nature is being expressed by the term YHWH. YHWH is Trinitarian.

Your problem seems to be with the definition of the term “one.” While “one” can mean, “one and only one,” (yachid, in Hebrew); it can also mean, “one as a group” (echad, in Hebrew; i.e. one Godhead). A cluster of grapes is “one;” the people Israel are “one” people; God’s name is “one.” Christ’s name is made up of at least 548 titles and yet is “one"!

What do you do with such verses as;

PS: Since you are attempting to exalt JESUS above the FATHER, you have embraced a reverse form of Subordinationism (a false doctrine that assigns an inferiority of being, status, or role to the Son or Holy Spirit within the Trinity).